Dwayne Bowe, Wally Gilby, And The Jubilant Matt Cassel

by Chiefs

This is maybe my least creative post title of all time.  I REALLY hate the “____, ____ and ___ ___ ____” title format you see plastered all over the blogosphere these days.  It’s designed to bring in Google hits, which is an unbelievably lame way to write.  Sports blogging, though, is becoming less about writing and more about search engine optimization (SEO).  You can thank the big networks for that.  They actually employ people whose job it is to push SEO.  In other words, to make writing worse.  You might as well get a job burning books.

So yeah, sorry about the lazy headline.  I got back from a tour with local indie/pop legends The ACBs at 4 a.m. last night*, and I have no brain cells to spare for titles.  I want to talk about three players.  So let’s just do that.

*In addition to my duties as fake journalist, for about four days per year I also function as a fake roadie. 

We’ll start with Bowe.  I don’t have anything new to say here, really.  D-Bowe is an amazing player, and he always has been.  He can do things no other player I’ve ever seen can do.  He’s dropped some big passes in his day, and he’ll probably drop some more.  Nobody is allowed to complain about that anymore.

I know some of you are turned off by Bowe’s personality.  I don’t getcha, man.  He’s good-natured, funny and vibrant on a team whose leaders try desperately to deprive us of all three of those traits.

I’ve loved many Chiefs players over the years, as we all have.  Mike Mazlowski, Kimble Anders, Dale Carter, James Hasty and Brandon Flowers all have marble busts in my mental hall of heroes.  Bowe has a full-body gold statue.  Never has a player brought me so much joy.

The “hail the glorious leader” crowd loves to attribute Bowe’s success to Todd Haley’s famed (within Chiefs Nation only) prowess as a motivator.  That seems like a reach to me considering Haley’s motivational results have been a mixed bag at best.  But then, I guess some of you don’t see it that way.  The players who do well were motivated by our coach, the players who don’t……

Look, I know some of you are desperate to give Todd Haley credit for anything positive that happens.  He certainly takes blame when things go wrong, so maybe thats just part of the balancing act.  But in this case I feel like the player is getting shortchanged.  Can we really give a coach credit for circus catches and ridiculous YAC?  Did Haley teach D-Bowe to do any of the things that make him great?

Dwayne Bowe will go down as the greatest receiver in Chiefs history.  Let’s start treating him like it.

Gilby and Cassel after le jump:

I want more Wallace Gilberry.  No matter how much I get, it’s never enough.  The conventional wisdom is that Gilby isn’t suited to a full-time role.  As it so often is, the conventional wisdom here is bullshirt.

This season is turning into a something of a Tyson Jackson lovefest*, and Chiefs fans have always loved Glenngarry Glenn Dorsey.  But let’s just take an objective look at Gilberry vs the LSU Block Eaters, and see who really isn’t suited for full-time duty.

*Four assisted tackles Sunday, no solo.  I don’t much care about tackle stats regardless, but it’s worth keeping in mind that the Chiefs assign those stats themselves.  Jackson tends to end up with an assisted tackle whenever he’s near the pile, much like Dorsey did when the men who picked him were still running things.  I’ll let you judge for yourselves whether this is a coincidence or not.

Even Jackson’s and Dorsey’s biggest supporters admit they’re basically useless against the pass.  When that QB drops back, they simply aren’t capable of generating any pressure.  This isn’t an insult necessarily; it just isn’t the type of player they are.  Their (alleged) skill set is geared almost entirely towards stopping the run.

Gilberry, of course, is exactly the opposite.  He’s a pass-rush whiz, but undersized against the run.  So naturally he’s the back up.  This is the way its always been.

I’m just not sure its the way it should be.  Confused old men and clueless announcers still talk about stopping the run being key, but everyone who is paying attention realizes the NFL is now a pass-first league.  Why not adjust the defense accordingly?  If the pass is king (which it is), why do we insist on stopping the run first?  The logic is outdated.

When an offense’s goals are uncertain, I see no theoretical reason why a pass-rusher wouldn’t be of just as much use as a run-stuffer.  Essentially, you’re picking your poison.  Which poison is worse: the one that hurts a little, or the one that can instantly kill you?  A successful team needs to be able to see reality and adjust to it.  Sticking with run stoppers in the base package because “that’s the way its always been done” is asinine.  Yet it appears that’s exactly what we’re doing.

If Tin Man finds himself in the game on a pass play, he’ll be stood up, provide no pressure, and essentially be useless to the defense.  Can the same be said for Gilberry against the run?  Not according to the 10 TFL he had last year.  He might not draw fake double-teams, but Wally Gilby can just as easily turn a running play into a net loss as he can a pass.  He’s also forced more fumbles this season than Tin Man has in his entire career.

Wally Gilby should be a full-time starter.  If he was, I think he’d be Pro Bowl material.  Instead, our coaches can’t get past the fact that he doesn’t look like what a 3-4 end was supposed to look like 20 years ago.  The result is a perfect pocket any time the opposing team wants to pass on first down.  It doesn’t have to be this way.

Gilby in the base set, Tin Man on obvious rushing downs.  This is an easy one.

And finally, a question about Cassel:

What do you guys think about these celebrations?  I’ve really been getting a kick out of it up until now, but I’m starting to think it might be time for someone to take Cassel aside and have a little chat.

Don’t get me wrong, I love a good showboat.  I’ve literally never wanted any of our players to tone it down at all.  Pope’s first down signal 10 yards short of the marker last year was one of my favorite moments of the season.  Even Samie Parker’s five yard dances had the Big Matt seal of approval.

Still, I’m on the fence about Cassel’s antics.  On the one hand, he’s fired up, I’m fired up, so why not have fun with it?  On the other hand, he does it no matter how badly he’s been playing up to that point, and he’ll even do it after he makes a bad throw.  That lob to Bowe in the corner was really poorly thrown.  His jumping QB sneak was one of the worst I’ve ever seen.  He acted like he’d just won the Super Bowl after both plays.  I can’t imagine how frustrating it must’ve been for Colts fans to watch this mediocre QB show them up like that.  I would’ve really hated him in their shoes.

In the end, I’m just happy Cassel is throwing touchdowns.  But I am curious as to what you Addicts think of what comes after.  Funny?  Inspring?  Too much?  My feelings right now are a mixture of all three.

God, I hate the bye week.

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The true determinant of a head coach in the NFL is not how players respond to them when they're winning, but instead how they perform when the team is struggling and has their backs up against the wall.

I thought this was a pretty tame article and didn't expect to read some of the comments that have been made. I also expected to see more talk about Jackie Battle and Breaston. Both looked better than I have ever seen them (at least in a Chief jersey). I know Indy and Minnesota are not the best teams in the NFL, but I am actually a lot more encouraged about the Chiefs going forward than I was just two weeks ago.

@blockeater I knew people would have strong opinions about the Cassel Q, but I didn't see any way Beast Nation could turn this into yet another "Big Matt hates Cassel" rally. I mean, I've been behind Cassel as the starter all season. Not into suck for luck, not caling for Stanzi. I was asking for opinions on Cassel's celebration issue, about which I was undecided. The reaction is fucking weird. I didn't want to write about Breaston and Battle because I try to avoid stuff I know the rest of the staff will cover. And after games like that, I figured those two would get plenty of love. But yeah, they were awesome. I, too, am way more encouraged. Nice to see wins.

Because everyone doesn't excel or play well doesnt' mean that Haley doesn't motivate some. That's very rigid thinking. It's a 3-4 defense; of course Jackson and Dorsey aren't getting sacks. They don't produce sacks on passing downs? Actually Dorsey certainly does. How does Tamba get to the quarterback? Have you ever seen what happens to Gilberry when they run right at him? (See Fred Jackson) He's a liability when they run the ball. Have you watched the last few games? Tyson Jackson has been playing quite well. Was he worth a number 3 overall pick? Who care's! That was three years ago and I've moved on. You're the only one still complaining about it. Very few other players picked in that area of the first round turned out either. (I'm sure you wanted Aaron Curry) How easy is it to get a 6'5" 295 lb. end to play 3-4? It's not. Ok; finally off my chest [until next week when you write your 900th blog in a row b!tching about Tyson Jackson].

@jakl It's comments like this that remind me why I write. Misused apostraphes, ridiculous hyperbole (900!), faulty logic, and to cap it all off, the old classic, "Did you watch the games?". I love it. So Dorsey is responsible for Hali's sacks, huh? Gotcha. You do realize they've been subbing him out on passing downs, right? I mean I don't even watch the games and I've picked up on that. Allen Bailey, raw rookie that he is, is apparently more useful in the passing game than Dorsey or Jackson. "I'm sure you wanted Aaron Curry." You're basing that on what exactly? Actually I wanted Michael Oher. "In my humble opinion, Oher is the best offensive lineman in the draft......Oher would be a dream come true." What an idiot I am! Also, did you read last week where I said Tin Man had been playing better? Too inconvenient to acknowledge, I guess? I'm sure Haley motivates some players. But you can't just assign any improvement directly to him (particularly when those players were good to begin with) and ignore the players who don't progress. To quote you, "thats very rigid thinking." See ya next week for # 901! Your friend, Matt

@Big Matt@jakl Sorry BM but he is right that Dorsey's inside pressure was responsible for the break down of the pocket that lead to ONE of Hali's sacks. Annoucers said it during the game and it was clear on instant replay. Maybe a little less gramatical correct and a little more gettin' the fact's staight??!!Agree that Bailey has huge potential and could definitely replace one of them in the long run. You're sure Haley motivated some players - really? Which ones?

@Big Matt@jakl The more I think about the Bowe/Haley connection I struggle to see how you - being such a huge fan of Bowe - don't remember him pre/early Haley. He dropped tons of easy balls, fat/out of shape, had a dumb ass don't care attitude and many fans were calling for him to be traded/cut but Haley stood by him - even defended him after the TD drop in Indy last year that cost us the game. Don't you think having your coach still believe in him may have contributed to his rise to to lead the NFL in TD's and earned him aPro Bowl? No you want to ignore all the obvious situations of Haley's coaching of Bowe, give the credit to Bowe's talent (already good) or give the credit to Chuck or Zorn. Why on earth isn't Fitz's giving credit and respect for Haley enough for you to see the light?

@KC MikeG @jakl "Maybe a little less gramatical correct and a little more gettin' the fact's staight??!!" This one is priceless. I'd frame it if I could. Bailey has already replaced Dorsey and Tin Man in the passing defense. In our coach's eyes, he is better than them right now. Is that because of how good he is? "They don't produce sacks on passing downs? Actually Dorsey certainly does. How does Tamba get to the quarterback?" Do you really agree with that statement?

@KC MikeG @jakl Mike, look, we have a different opinion on Todd Haley's motivational prowess, OK? Is it really so hard for you to understand how people can be undecided on Haley? He hasn't accomplished anything yet. He had a bad season under shitty circumstances and a good season under easy circumstancees. He made a colossal error in training camp and the preseason, cost us a chance to be competetive early, and has now won a couple of games vs winless teams. This is the definition of a mixed bag. Surely you realize this.

I hate the bye as well. Bowe is superman. Gilbery will be starting before long. Cassel is Cassel.

Bowe is a monster! My son and his friends were watching the game with me and when he would catch it they would yell "he's not going down" Every time he catches the ball he is a threat to go all the way. Shedding DB's and delivering stiff arms! Think I may pick up a Bowe jersey as he is becoming my favorite player and it makes me sad to where my JC one. Agree with Lyle on Haley getting Bowe in shape and focusing on catching the ball which when combined with his incredible physical skills makes him one of the best. As long as he avoids injury and continues this pace 4,188 / 35 TD's in 4.25 years vs. Taylor's 7,306 / 57 TD's in 11 seasons he will clearly become the Chief's best ever but for now I still hold Otis Taylor as our best. Don't see how you can see Haley's success as a motivator as a "reach" w/ "mixed bag results". How about the changes in DJ? How about Cassel's turn around last year 27TD/7INT and the last 2 weeks 5TD/0 INT? How about the way the players buy into his approach? How about the fact that they still believed in themselves and never question our coaches or throw each other under the bus? Those are clearly the results of great coaching.

Agree on TJax and Dorsey on the pass rush and love Wally G. Berry. Lyle may have hit on the better approach (4-3 vs 3-4) to use of them all to the best of their abilities.But more of him on any play would be good with me. Think you're missing the point on Cassel. He gets so excited when a good play happens for his team mates and the team - especially if he has a part - because he has stretches where he makes bad decisions/throws. It's easier to get wound up when a good/great performance has not been the norm. I have watched Bowe's miraculous repeatedly and while he gets all the credit for the incredible catch and I don't think there was room for him to throw it over the top and allow Bowe to stay in bounds - although I have seen him do some incredible things along the paint. Plus even if Bowe hadn't made the fantastic play the position of the throw drew a flag for a 1st and goal worse case and still allowed Bowe to make the play.

Who cares what the sneak looked like? He extended the ball to get forward progress and earned us the critical 1st down. Why be critical of Cassel's excitement and interpet it as "all about him"? Pretty sure he doesn't think he won the SB but am sure he was thrilled for Bowe's fantastic effort/us scoring a TD and getting back in the game. He has never been about bragging up his good/great games, always gives credit to the OL/WR's and always takes credit for his poor play. Seems like the players look to him as a leader and inspiration. Wish you could get down off that fence - that can't be comfortable. You don't get how some are turned off by Bowe's personality but then turn around a do the exact same thing about Cassel. I love them both because they are both a little goofy but together they are a dangerous combo. With the addition of Baldwin and the growth of Cassel's relationship with him and Breaston, Bowe will only get better - dare I say UNSTOPPABLE!

@KC MikeG The first down line isn't the goal line. If the ball crosses the plain, then is pulled back, it isn't automaticaly a first down. He got a very generous spot. Here are some of my Cassel quotes, from this very article: "I’ve really been getting a kick out of it up until now" "In the end, I’m just happy Cassel is throwing touchdowns." "Funny? Inspring? Too much? My feelings right now are a mixture of all three." Literally just asking a question here because I was interested to hear everyone's take. I've defended Cassel much more than I've criticized him this year. In my circle of Chiefs fans, I'm the Cassel homer. As for the difference between his celebreations and Bowe's, it is MASSIVE. Bowe is an amazing player who celebrates after amazing plays. Cassel is an average QB who celebrates after his receivers save his ass. Not the same. Also, Cassel looks like a total dork and Bowe looks cool as hell. Not important, but true, right?

@KC MikeG It sure seemed like Cassel was taking credit for his own poor play after getting in an argument with Haley on the sideline the other week.

@Big Matt@kc Again a head's up smart play but you want to take the credit away from him and give to the ref. Why? No it wasn't the prettiest QB sneak I have ever seen but it got the 1st down! The spot wasn't generous, it was accurate. You are wrong about the ruling on the field - "Forward progress appears simple in concept – the forward most point of the ball when the play is declared dead. This simple concept is one of the most inconsistently applied and misunderstood rules of the game.It is not the position of the runner’s foot or the runner’s knee.

@Big Matt@kc Rather, it is the position of the forward most point of the ball when the play becomes dead by rule. It is this dead ball spot that determines forward progress. Officials must determine if the opponent of the runner has sufficiently held or grasped the runner so as to have stopped his forward movement. This action is what kills the play not the whistle. It's not just the end zone or why would RB/WR's try to stretch the ball forward before they go down/out of bounds?

@Big Matt@kc Think you're missing the point on Cassel. He gets so excited when a good play happens for his team mates and the team - especially if he has a part - because he has stretches where he makes bad decisions/throws. It's easier to get wound up when a good/great performance has not been the norm.He has never been about bragging up his good/great games, always gives credit to the OL/WR's and always takes credit for his poor play. Seems like the players look to him as a leader and inspiration. Wish you could see it too.

@KC MikeG I know the rule. "When the play becomes dead by rule" is obviously the rub here. Cassel pulled the ball back before he was tackled. If the ref ruled the play dead, fine, its dead. Obviously I liked the ruling, but objectively, that was not a dead ball. Like I said, it was a VERY generous ruling by the ref.

@KC MikeG With all due respect Mike,You don't know why Cassel gets excited. You don't know him. You're doing what you often do, which is inventing the most positive interpretation you can think of, and treating that as gospel. Christ, i don't even dislike Cassel. I was not on suck for luck, and wanted Cassel to be the starter, which i stated repeatedly. Is me asking people if his celebrations are over-the-top really something that pisses you off? Thats crazy, man. Seriously, think about that.

@Big Matt@kc With all due respect BM NEITHER DO YOU but you are the one spinning out the gospel truths questioning if it is right for him to act overly excited when Bowe makes a great catch of his under thrown ball. You seem to have invented the knowledge that he is taking undeserved credit. I have no problem with the question just you're ignoring the possiblity that he loves it when his fellow players do great and the team wins. He has never been anything but modest of the successes.

@KC MikeG "How about Cassel's turn around last year 27TD/7INT and the last 2 weeks 5TD/0 INT?" This is exactly what I mean, Mike. You're assuming Cassel's improved play is due to Haley's coaching, yet not assigning any blame for the first two games. So when he's good, its Haley. What about when he's bad? You can't just ignore that. I mean I guess you can, but not if you want your evaluation to be accurate. You're also ignoring Zorn and Weis, because its convenient for your Haley argument. Cassel's worst year was when Haley was the one coaching him. True, or false? I'm not of the opinion that Haley's insane benching of DJ had any positive effect. DJ has always been pretty good, and he's pretty good now. His stats picked up a tick last year when the defense was suddenly much better (under Crennel). Hardly surprising. "How about the way the players buy into his approach?.....Those are clearly the results of great coaching." Mike, you can only say these things if you ignore the first two weeks, which you seem all too eager to do. If a win over an 0-4 team is automatically great coaching, what is a loss? Pick up that Bowe jersey. You won't regret it.

@Big Matt@kc I do hold Haley accountable for Cassel's bad play also to some degree (he can't throw the ball for him). I like facts, like after SD we have seen Cassel run more and throw the ball away vs the sack. Signs of coaching impacting a previously bad behavior. You assume that Cassel's improved play is not due to Haley's coaching even with the national televised reaming he gave Cassel - followed by the part so many want to ignore because it doesn't fit into the Haley sucks blah blah, Haley sitting on the bench next to him coaching him up going over the overhead shots so he could see what he was missing. Matt went back in and played like he did last year but no credit for HC? got it! Cassel played his worst when only Haley coached him? Seriously?

@Big Matt@kc Yes I give credit to Zorn/Chuck W. but you can hang Cassel's bad play on Haley only when our entire team sucked until JC got going? And his "dog house" of DJ is "insane" yet got huge results but only Crennel gets your credit? What more do you need BM - Cassel and Bowe have flat out said that Haley's coaching has brought out the best in them. Guess you will always find a way to find fault in Haley no matter the evidence - even the players own words!

@Big Matt@kc You are completely missing the oh so obvious example of the players buying in to Haley's approach. I'm not the one ignoring the 1st 2 weeks - that would be you my friend. The way they didn't ever quit during those horrible losses, or the ones last year either, no one threw anyone under the bus and the way they pulled together and have come back from the dead are the perfect examples of Great Coaching! We could have folded after those beatings or lost either of the last 2 games but we didn't because our players won't give up - that's the kind of inspiration that comes from Haley.

@Big Matt@kc Yes he makes mistakes - who doesn't? Remember this is his 1st gig, we are $27M under the cap w/o any big $$ FA's and we have had plenty of challenges to overcome already (LJ, Wiess, Gailey, injuries). Haley's great coaching isn't just last week - it's been a huge turnaround from being a "we know we are losers" to "we are going to fight to be the best every game". Hope you will be able to start seeing and enjoying the culture he is establishing to grow this team into a dynasty sooner rather than later.

@KC MikeG yes Mike, seriously. How could you possibly disagree with that statement? "I like facts, like after SD we have seen Cassel run more and throw the ball away vs the sack" Uh, dude, that isn't a fact. Thats an opinion, backed up by no evidence of any kind in your comment. You just stated what you thought, and moved on to talking about what an awesome coach Haley is. No facts listed. I mean.......reading that sentence after "I like facts" was pretty shocking. FACT: Haley's record as head coach is 16-21. I'm guessing you don't like that fact, and would like to apply spin to it, right? Please, prove me wrong. Either that, or think long and hard before making a statement like "I like facts."

@KC MikeG This "buying into the approach" stuff, and then talking about how they "didn't quit" during those heinous beatings*....I mean seriously, are you in the Chiefs PR department? *You're not allowed to quit. No team has quit, ever. Are you gonna sit here and talk about how hard they were playing during 41-7 and 48-3 losses? What are you even basing that on? Lemme guess......your eyeballs!

@Big Matt@kc FACT: Cassel 1 rush for 1 yard combined for the 1st 3 weeks and 4 rushes for 20 yards week #4 and 5 rushes for 12 yards week #5. Pretty shocking huh? Yes, I saw him run and throw away the ball too instead of taking a sack but that doesn't make it my opinion. I looked for the throw aways stats but could find any record keeping on that so I guess that will have to just be my "opinion". UH DUDE maybe you should check your facts before you try to label them my opinion and discredit them. And yes I am a aware of Haley's record, wish it was better but if you can't acknowledge the pathetic shit storm of losing he inherited then brother you got serious issues.

@Big Matt@kc No not in the PR Dept but thanks for the compliment! Wrong again my friend. There is a long history of teams giving up. Just this year "Frank Gore said the Eagles quit last week, and now Vernon Davis is accusing the Tampa Bay Buccaneers of quitting this week. "They were really frustrated." Davis said. "I mean, I felt like they gave up. That's what I saw. I felt like they gave up. I was trying to tell, I think it was Barber, Ronde, I was telling him: 'Get your guys. Get your guys. Y'all got to play harder, y'all got to play harder.'" The Cowboys quit on Wade Phillips.

@Big Matt@kc The 1976 Bucs quit - "The coach (John McKay) stopped talking to us after the third game," defensive lineman Pat Toomay told the Columbus Dispatch in 2001. "During the week, he wanted nothing to do with us. I can't blame him, really. We had so many guys get injured that nobody knew who was hurt and who wasn't. By the end of the season we were getting guys out of the Canadian league and off the streets."

@KC MikeG FACT: Cassel has been sacked as many times in the last two games as in the first three combined. Explain how that jives with him throwing the ball away more vs the sack? Seriously, I am dying to hear this. You don't like facts, you like facts that support only your opinion. Any other facts you spin, disregard, and ignore.

@KC MikeG The score of that game was THE EXACT SAME as the score of our game against the Lions. So they quit, but we bought in? Gotcha. By all means, keep lobbing these softballs.

@KC MikeG And yet they played every minute of every game, presumably? What were those scores? Consistently worse than 48-3?

@Big Matt@kc 1991 Colts (1-15) A memorable season for Indianapolis -- the Colts set NFL records for fewest points (143) and fewest TDs (14) in a 16-game season. Midway through the season, when the Colts were still winless, Eric Dickerson all but told fans to stay away. "Personally, I wouldn't come out and watch a game. No way I'd pay to see someone play the way we are."

@KC MikeG and yet they played every game, right? Every minute? So "quit" is an arbitrary definition, then (not Merriam, obviously)? Based on a player's OPINION, or yours?

@Big Matt@kc i SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE SCORE! Only the effort the players were giving. That's what the SF players are saying not me. I didn't hear anyone calling out our players for quiting nor did I see it. If these are such lobs for you why don't you try hitting one?

@Big Matt@kc I told you the throw aways were my perspective. Didn't have the facts on that one but nice job ignoring the FACTS on his running more. Geez dude takes a lot of nerve to blantly ignore a FACT then accuse me of doing so.

@KC MikeG No Mike, I didn't ingore your running stat. You didn't provide it at frst. When you did, I listed a counter-stat. It was you who asserted he'd taken less sacks. An incorrect assertion. What did I assert that was incorrect?

@KC MikeG No Mike, I didn't ingore your running stat. You didn't provide it at first. When you did, I listed a counter-stat. It was you who asserted he'd taken less sacks. An incorrect assertion. What did I assert that was incorrect?

@KC MikeG touche. So then, giving our max effort, we scored 3 against 48. Giving no effort, Tampa did the same. WHAT ARE YOU SAYING, MIKE? What are you, some kind of Tampa fan? Think they're so much better than us? Oh man, I'm gonna puke. Get him guys! He's a Tampa fan!

@Big Matt@kc Tlalk about spin, Maybe the fact that we played against the #1 sack leader Allen AND the #9 Robinson for the Vikes and the #9 AND #16 players in Freeny and Mathias and let's just ignore that we were playing from behind too. Or how about that Van den Bosch DET is #22 and the only sacker in the to 36 rankings - Buf only has 5 all season. Or maybe the FACT that he threw 5 picks in the 1st 3 games vs. NONE in the last 2. Really dude maybe you should quit while you are way behind!

@Big Matt@kc First you say teams never quit but when proven wrong by facts you spin around and question whether we did or not?? Weak.

@KC MikeG OK I'll admit it I'm just lost now. I "spin around and question whether we did or not"? What are you even talking about? We didn't quit. None of those teams quit. They all played every minute of every game. You're not allowed to quit. If you mean "stopped trying", OK, but that isn't something you're fit to judge. I mean, each individual player's effort, averaged out against another team, whose game you may not even have watched? Are you kidding me?

@Big Matt@kc You need to call it a night dude! How could you possibly get that I admire the Bucs?/ I provide a quote from a player who called them out for quiting. How on earth do you spin that into I'm for the Bucs?? You have completely lost your grip on reality. I'll repeat what I'm saying for you really slow....we...didn't....quit. No....one is ....calling...out ...our players...for..quiting....but...other ...teams...are ..being called..out. Like the Eagles and Bucs. Do you even read what I write before you write your response??.

@KC MikeG KAPOW! I'm not spinning anything, man. You said he'd taken less sacks, and you were wrong. Then you list a bunch of excuses (that yes, are facts, you did it!), and act like I'M the one who can't face reality. This has gotten too crazy. I'm going to bed. Feel free to stay up thinking of some more zingers.

@KC MikeG the Bucs thing was a joke. Wow. This is getting weirder by the second.

@Big Matt@kc Listed a counter stat w/o understanding the reasoning for it and did NOT address the running stat that supported my claim you labeled an opinion.

@Big Matt@kc Wrong - never said he took less sacks said he was running more and throwing the ball away to avoid more sacks. The sacks would have been even higher when playing against the top sackers in the NFL if he hadn't. Facts are facts, not excuses.

@Big Matt@kc You're right. No NFL team has ever walked off the field before teh game was over. You got me! Is that really what you thought I meant by quiting? It was based on two players stating what they saw on the field. Call it an opinion if you want but it vertainly wasn't mine.