A Familiar Tune

by Chiefs

What excited me most about the 2011 season wasn’t how good I thought we’d be.  Our 2010 schedule was a basket full of delicious cupcakes, and I understood that.  I think most of us did.  I wasn’t expecting big things from the Chiefs this year.  Playoffs, maybe, and that elusive playoff win seemed like a faint possibility.  I did put money on the Chiefs to win the Super Bowl, but I wasn’t exactly looking at that as a sound investment.  I figured we could be anywhere from kinda bad to pretty good.

And yet, I was VERY excited for this season.  Why?  Because, in my mind, the excuses had finally run out.  For three years we listened to Herm blame players, injuries, youth, the schedule, the strength of the yen, the zodiac, and various books of the Bible for his team’s misfortunes.  Then Haley came to town, and while he himself is not an excuse-giver, the excuses were definitely there.  KC fans had at that point grown to love excuses almost as much as we love barbecue.  For the past two years I’ve watched the fan base spin any failure before the organization even gets a chance to.

This season, though, was going to be different.  The excuse well had finally run dry.  Our coach isn’t new, our GM isn’t new, our defense isn’t new, and Tyson Jackson was heading into that magical third year (LOL).  And most importantly, to me, you can’t claim to be “rebuilding” a year after winning the division.  After five years, I thought I was finally done hearing that word.

Alas that I may have thought wrong.  I realized at the end of Sunday’s game that the door is now open for the same old excuses to creep back into the discourse.  Find out EXACTLY how its going to happen after le jump:

There are the injuries, of course, and people will certainly point to that.  Rightfully so, to some extent.  Even if Scott Pioli had assembled a decent roster, there is no replacement for Jamaal Charles or Eric Berry.  Not on this, or any team.  But Sabby Piscitelli and Thomas Jones are two of the worst players I’ve ever seen on an NFL field.  Given, by his own account, a limitless budget to work with, these are the guys Pioli signed in case our starters went down (or to be the starter, in Jones’ case).  These players were chosen to play football for us, and now they are.

The Moeaki injury, while an undisputed bummer, is something Pioli knew would be a possibility when he made the pick.  So we can’t really act like that was out of his hands.  The guy had a really troubling injury history.  Yes, it sucks that our players got hurt, but players get hurt every year.  Its a GM’s job to make back-up plans.  I think we can officially list back-up planning as a Pioli weakness.

Honestly though, it isn’t the injury excuse I’m worried about.  Its a deeper kind of bullshirt that troubles me.  We’ve now eased back into the state of being where a certain kind of loss is called progress.  Where we’re bad because of circumstance, and it’s nobody’s fault.  Where a handful of wins and competitive losses will be hailed as a success.  And where, most importantly, the fan base is mollified and the franchise’s real problems are masked yet again.  Here’s how its gonna go down:

The Chiefs are going to win one of these next two games.  I doubt they’ll look good, but they’ll win.  People will say the team rallied around Haley and displayed toughness.  We’ll be awash in inspirational tweets from players (this has actually already started).  They’ll still be playing bad football, but they won’t get blown out every week.   Just some weeks.

The phrase “small-market” will be used repeatedly by people and sites connected to the Chiefs.  Specifically, this will be used to explain our lack of depth.  “Hey, we’re a small-market team.”  No mention of the endless cap space or generous revenue-sharing.

As the season goes on, Cassel’s play and the injuries will be the main talking points.  Haley’s horrendous offseason strategy and Pioli’s continued frugality will fade from the discussion.  Our positive expectations heading into this season will slowly be forgotten.  Even the normal expectation that every team has, the expectation to compete, will be obscured.  If we compete, hey, bonus.  Todd Haley is an amazing coach and Scott Pioli is a personnel genius.  If we don’t, it’s because we’re (sigh) rebuilding.

For Chiefs fans, rebuilding is just another way to say losing.  It doesn’t matter what steps are actually being taken.  If we’re bad, we’re rebuilding.  End of discussion.  But I want to remind everyone of three things:

1) Our coach and GM have had three full offseasons together to remake this team in their image.  When Haley arrived, he had that infamous ”Wait til I get my guys in here” quote.  Three years later, and our roster is stocked with “his guys.”  None of them are good.

2) Scott Pioli talks a lot about sustainability.  He and Dayton Moore have that in common.  Constant talk of patience, acting like it takes years upon years to turn a franchise around.  Meanwhile, all around us, other teams change their fortunes drastically with one or two years of smart moves.  Our explanation is always, “We’re not going for a flash in the pan.  We’re creating a team that will consistently compete for championships.”  In other words, fast turnarounds are bogus, a snail’s pace leads to lasting success.  I’d like Scott Pioli to explain how many years it takes to create this sustainability.  And just for laughs, I’d like him to do it with Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis (Saints’ GM) in the room.

3) Simply doing less than other teams does not constitute rebuilding.  We’re not the only team that makes draft picks.  Every team makes their picks, and every team tries to develop their players.  That isn’t rebuilding.  That’s something everyone else is doing every year.  From what I can tell, in KC, “rebuilding” means losing and spending less than other teams.

The excuses will creep in.  They’re already starting to.  Straw men will be built and argued against, erroneous comps will be drawn, and at the end of it all, our fan base will somehow be at exactly the same place we were in this regime’s first year.  Bad team, bad record, pat on the back for everyone involved.

Some day, some how, our team will actually be good again.  Every excuse we create delays that day a little more.

Two more quick takes before I ride off into the sunset (Dunkin Donuts):

1)  re: Suck for Luck- Personally, I’m still rooting for wins and a Cassel turnaround.  But that’s my bag.  If you want to suck for Luck, I won’t blame you for that or question your fanhood.  I once wanted the Royals to suck for David Price.  Instead they swept Detroit in a meaningless final series, fell to the second pick, and got Mike Moustakas.  So believe me, I understand where you guys are coming from.

2) Dig this Haley quote from Mellinger’s article on Saturday.  “Some of the tweeting and things that are going on even here locally,” he says. “There’s no facts. It’s just conjecture, rumor, for whatever reason. It’s not right. That’s not right, that’s not fair.”  Again, Haley is referencing ”speculation” here.  This team won’t tell anyone anything, and when someone so much as tweets a well-known rumor, its “not right, not right, and not fair.”  This attitude, from people in charge of a professional sports team, is mind-boggling.  They simply do not understand the relationship between team, media and fans.  Weird, wild stuff.

Follow your boy on twitter…..and prepare to be underwhelmed.

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I'm really trying to stay positive, but I don't know. We still need another WR to go along with Bowe. We still need a legit NT and improved DE/DT (Dorsey is ok but TJax needs to go). Cassel just doesn't look the same this year. I have no idea why that is.

@blockeater Cassel is terrified this year. I have no idea what happened either, but he looks like he just got back from Vietnam. On the WR front, at least Baldwin will be back soon. Maybe he's good? Thats something to hope for, at least. Something that isn't five years down the road.

First off Matt, i'm finally admitting my mistake in supporting Thomas Jones this year. You are right, he's done. We should have addressed through the draft or free agency the running back position. It's gotta feel good to see those words from TIDL. I'm glad you brought up the Saints. Lets talk about the season following his miraculous 2006 10-6 turn around year featuring the quarterback Drew Brees, the coach Sean Payton, the GM Mickey Loomis. 2007 - Game 1 L 41-7 To Indianapolis Colts; Game 2 L 31-14 Tampa Bay; Game 3 L 31-14 Lions; Game 4 L 16-13 Panthers; Week 5 Bye (You'd have fired Mr Payton here, right Paddy?). They went on to finish 7-9 that year. Next year 8-8. THEN Drew Brees and the Saints won the Superbowl. Easy right? I don't understand how everyone that thought the Chiefs were going to be so successful heading into this season give up after three games. Have you no spine? Do you flip flop that easily? All I heard were tales of a young talented roster and the promise of the future. Those players are still on the team. Listen, I'm as disappointed as anyone with the start. We've looked downright terrible at times. We have lost some important, talented players, but there's 13 games left. I don't care who they are against, we can win any of them. Crazier things have happened in the NFL every year. Lastly I want to address the 'Suck for Luck' cries. You aren't fans. NO fan roots for their team to lose, let alone 13 games. Sure you may get Andrew Luck but at what cost? The entire locker room? Do you know what that would do to morale of young players and the morale of the Chiefs in general? I seriously can't believe you people. I never want another 2-14 season no matter who we get in return. Matt may not call you out but I will. I want to leave you with a quote from a dear friend: "This is what's great about sports. This is what the greatest thing about sports is. You play to win the game. Hello? You play to win the game. You don't play it to just play it. That's the great thing about sports: you play to win, and I don't care if you don't have any wins. You go play to win. When you start tellin' me it doesn't matter, then retire. Get out! 'Cause it matters." - Following a reporter's question on the team's ability to win, on October 30, 2002 after a Week 8 loss to the Cleveland Browns left them at 2–5. After this speech however the Jets, sparked by the debut of Quarterback Chad Pennington, would go 7–2 and win the AFC Eastern Division Championship.

@TrappedInDonkeyland I agree that I just can't get behind rooting for losses in the hope that we get Luck. I think we need to get him by trading up or doing what we can leading up to the draft, but not lose games. The Thomas Jones debate should serve as humble pie to a lot of "homers" that thought nothing was wrong last year because we were winning. It was a dumb argument then and it is starting to show. Even the best teams in the NFL have problems that need fixed. We need to have a winning attitude and that includes ALWAYS believing you can get better.

@TrappedInDonkeyland THANKS TIDL! Your rational words broke the sucking sound drawing me into the pit of pessimism! Thank you! GO CHIEFS! I agree on TJ - thought that him losing a little weight and being used a little less would get us a better RB but I was wrong. Think I'm wrong in my support of Cassel too. Give him two more weeks and that's it. If we get Baldwin back and Haley uses the "MCBack combo" the offense will get rolling to help out the D for a change. If he would give Stanzi a shot Bowe, Baldwin, Breaston and Horne would be an awesome 4 WR set that would put up some serious points with someone who can move around the pocket and throw it more than 10 yards down field....how about Stanzi?

@TrappedInDonkeyland You play to win the game FANS! So get your butts out to Arrowhead Sunday and let's scream our lungs out showing the guys how much we want them to WIN!

@TrappedInDonkeyland Love that Herm lives in the hearts of Chief fans. It is a great quote and a great story. Also very good post. But I think you are conceptually wrong to the extent you think there is any realistic chance of the Chiefs making the playoffs this year. Once an analysist/fan comes to that conclusion, then the question is how should it affect who you play in the remaining games. I don't think anyone is suggesting the Chiefs deliverately lose. What we are suggesting is that they go to 100% youth mode to try to develop prospects and find out what they got, instead of playing veterans in the pursuit of a couple more victories in a 4 and 12 or even 6 and 10 season. You put the young guys in and, if they wind up going 2 and 14, and we get Luck, it is a great year. I doubt that 14 losses will traumatize any of the players. Next year would be a new and exciting year, with the best quarterback in college football coming on board.

@KC Oracle You will never make me believe 2-14 is EVER a great year. Sure 14 losses traumatizes players. Do you remember Flower's saying he never wants to go back to the 2008 Chiefs? It wasn't followed by "unless we get Luck, and then it's cool I guess". And getting the first overall pick (Luck) doesn't assure you of a Superbowl victory just ask; Sam Bradford Mathew Stafford Jamarcus Russell Carson Palmer David Carr Michael Vick Tim Couch Drew Bledsoe Jeff George Vinnie Testeverde Steve Bartowski........

@TrappedInDonkeyland Flowers is one of the guys we now depend upon and, presumably, would want to keep on the team after this year. Do you think he is still a reliable guy for the future, despite his 2 and 14 experience? Are we better off with Luck (technically, Luck and Cassell) than our present quarterback? If the answers to these questions are yes, than we should Suck for Luck (without deliberately throwing games)

@KC Oracle Sure Flowers is left but the majority are no longer with the team and MANY aren't even in the NFL. When you tank a season that bad coaches, schemes, and players go out the window. We start rebuilding again, probably another string of painful seasons. Luck isn't an instant fix, he's the reset button

@TrappedInDonkeyland @KC Oracle I get the logic behind Suck for Luck, its the reset button aspect I just can't deal with.

@TrappedInDonkeyland Yeah, we'd have to lose A LOT more games to get Luck. Tough to root for that, no matter the potential benefit. I mean we have to live in the here and now, you know? I won't say someone isn't a fan because that isn't for me to judge, but I can't in good conscience root for a 2-14 season. We've been there. It was aboslutely miserable. Lets review the Saints/Chiefs comparison again: Saints: went from 3-13 to 10-6, NFC championship game in first year. Finished middle of the pack in years 2 and 3, won the Super Bowl in year 4. Chiefs: went from 2-14 to 4-12 first year, squeeked into the playoffs the second year due to the easiest schedule in the NFL, got blown out in the first round. Likely to finish well below .500 again in the third year. Pretty different trajectories there, amigo. A quick, legitimate turnaround (NFC Championship!) that culminated in a Super Bowl run for one team.......rebuilding for the other. Can't believe you're abandoning your boy Jones! In all seriousness though it would've been really nice to have drafted a running back in like the fifth round. Perfect place to draft a backup RB, really.

@Big Matt I understand it's not a parallel trajectory but there's never an identical path in the NFL. I guess the point I was trying to make is let's see how this plays out before we jump off the ledge. The team played a lot better Sunday. Teams have turned things around before

I have to say I agree with all of this, Matt. It's sad that we as fans are used to it. Though I believe if we get Luck and get rid of Haley, we have the opportunity to be Great for the next 15 years.

Scary but you're starting to make more sense to me. Could it be that Haley isn't saying that the criticism is unfair but the blind speculation of his and Pioli's relationship is waht's not right. I get what you're saying BM about the organization telling us more about what's going on but what benefit would there be to the team for Piloi to announce he can't stand Haley or that he's on the "hot seat". Just don't see how that would be anything but detrimental to the team.

@KC MikeG I think he actually was referencing the speculation about his relationship with Pioli in particular. And you're right, airing their dirty laundry definitely wouldn't help anything. It isn't just this though. They won't talk about ANYTHING. And when thats your attitude, people are going to speculate. I don't expect Haley to like it, but to publicly complain? To me that shows a real lack of self-awareness. Which is something both Haley and Pioli seem to have a problem with.

I have to say that when it comes to the spending this season, you're starting to bring me around to your side. I guess when I looked at the resigning of our top talent and adding a few new starters like Breaston, McClain, and Gregg that he did fine in filling out the roster. I was blinded by my "homerness" and completely overlooked how poor the depth at the back end of the roster was. I'm a big enough man to say that you were right and I was wrong. I actually think our view of this team going forward this year are pretty similar.

@LyleGraversen Nooooooo Lyle! Don't go over the dark side! Wait, whats that sucking sound? Oh no something is drawing me towards Big Matt's thoughts. Can't you hear it it's this constant sucking sound like from a huge vacuum cleaner. Help! I'm losing my grip on my optimism...slipping away........help.......

@KC MikeG @LyleGraversen Looks like I did some nice devil's work on you guys today :) I actually felt the same way about the offseason initially, Lyle. Breaston, McClain and Gregg didn't necessarily excite me, but I figured between that, the draft and Hali's deal, we did OK. I think our expectations have just been ground into the dirt these past few years. We assume our offseason will be terrible, and are somewhat pacified when it looks like it could be average (if you squint). I mean what did we really do but re-sign a player we absolutely had to, make our draft picks, and pick up a few scraps? I'm going to stop using the word homer. I don't like being called a hater, so i won't call others a homer (I've never really thought of you as a homer anyway). I don't know if I was right and you were wrong, I was just angrier than you. Your main contention, from what I can recall, is that you didn't think Clark was limiting the spending himself. You still could be write about that.

Great post MATTY!

You are right about the reasons we are so bad this year (in addition to the injuries), but Pioli is smart so he will: (1) fire Haley to give himself more time and shfit the blame (plus, he apparently no longer thinks Haley is a good coach); and (2) spend big next year to enhance his chance for success (year 4 he will start running out of time), after making Clark Hunt many millions in extra profits for 3 years staying well below cap.

subtext to this article: I know we're going to be awful this year, and I'm actually not that upset about it. I'm still psyched to watch these games (buying the Sunday ticket today). I just want our team, and fans, to take ownership of the real reasons why we are where we are. Only then can we move forward.

One more thought. I don't think Halye will benefit from the excuses cited by Big Matt because fans don't like him and, apparently, Pioli doesn't like him. The Haley quote cited by Big Matt from the Mellinger column is pathetic: the supposedly tough guy coach who claims he does not pay attention to any criticism saying criticism is “not fair." I normally have sympathy for quotes by people who have a microphone in their face every day, and face loads of criticism in their jobs, but Haley has forfeited my sympathy with his years of insultingly saying nothing and his too frequent outright lies, repeatedly conveying he has no respect for the fans, the press or the truth.

@KC Oracle yeah Haley may lose his job regardless. Some will defend him, but some even defended Herm his last year. Its Pioli and Clunt who will really benefit from the excuses. The guys who also don't have to answer Qs from the media every week. I feel sorry for Haley, in a way.

@Big Matt Haley may be a good guy in person (I have heard different things about that), but his public persona makes him a hard guy to feel sorry for. You are right that Pioli and Hunt will get the most benefit from the excuses based on injuries, Haley's bad coaching, tough schedule, and everything else. ps You know, some peple think Herm had his moments. I seem to remember him having the 15 and 1 Steelers beat in the division championship, only to have his kicker miss a couple easy field goals. He even got a mediocre Chiefs team into the playoffs in his first year. And some say he picked and developed the best of the current Chiefs.

@KC Oracle Re: Herm, I would say its fair to say he picked the best of the current players, but I would argue that the"development" of those players has been much more Haley then Herm.

@LyleGraversen Hard to believe Herm was the end all be all for the players brought in during his time running our team into the dirt that we are still struggling to get out of. Pretty sure we have an extensive scouting dept and King Carl surely had his say too.

@kc sounds to me like Haley is crying like a six year old. "IT'S NOT FAIR "

when tamba makes a good play i feel for a split second like we're going to the superbowl. jets and patriots fans do not feel this way about their players.which is to say the thing that makes kc fans stupid also makes them great. that said, i agree we need to ask more of the leadership of the team. suck for luck.

@jackie rubbinson watching Tamba is still a total joy. I can't believe how good he is. Getting the ticket. next week: my place.

I don't know nomarlly use the expression, but it fits here: "it is what it is." The season is lost. There is no realistic possibility of a recovery that puts the Chiefs in the playoffs. Cassell might be okay with a good team, but Suck for Luck provides the possibility for a huge upgrade at the most important position on the team. No other strategy makes sense. I guess you can't intentionally lose, but you sure can put on the field every young player who might make a contribution to a good team next year, see what they can do, and increase the chance of losing every game this year. Like the baseball team that should put every prospect in the line up once the current year is lost, the Chiefs should take advantage of their lost season right now by developing young players and thereby greatly enhance their chances for Luck as a bonus. Haley is a walking dead man, and he probably should be fired sooner rather than later, because his disperation might produce a couple unwanted wins in the race for Luck.

back years ago didn't we pass on Elway, have we learned.

blockeater 13 pts

I'm really trying to stay positive, but I don't know. We still need another WR to go along with Bowe. We still need a legit NT and improved DE/DT (Dorsey is ok but TJax needs to go). Cassel just doesn't look the same this year. I have no idea why that is.

Big Matt 199 pts

blockeater Cassel is terrified this year. I have no idea what happened either, but he looks like he just got back from Vietnam.

On the WR front, at least Baldwin will be back soon. Maybe he's good? Thats something to hope for, at least. Something that isn't five years down the road.

TrappedInDonkeyland 243 pts

First off Matt, i'm finally admitting my mistake in supporting Thomas Jones this year. You are right, he's done. We should have addressed through the draft or free agency the running back position. It's gotta feel good to see those words from TIDL.

I'm glad you brought up the Saints. Lets talk about the season following his miraculous 2006 10-6 turn around year featuring the quarterback Drew Brees, the coach Sean Payton, the GM Mickey Loomis.

2007 - Game 1 L 41-7 To Indianapolis Colts; Game 2 L 31-14 Tampa Bay; Game 3 L 31-14 Lions; Game 4 L 16-13 Panthers; Week 5 Bye (You'd have fired Mr Payton here, right Paddy?). They went on to finish 7-9 that year. Next year 8-8. THEN Drew Brees and the Saints won the Superbowl. Easy right?

I don't understand how everyone that thought the Chiefs were going to be so successful heading into this season give up after three games. Have you no spine? Do you flip flop that easily? All I heard were tales of a young talented roster and the promise of the future. Those players are still on the team. Listen, I'm as disappointed as anyone with the start. We've looked downright terrible at times. We have lost some important, talented players, but there's 13 games left. I don't care who they are against, we can win any of them. Crazier things have happened in the NFL every year.

Lastly I want to address the 'Suck for Luck' cries. You aren't fans. NO fan roots for their team to lose, let alone 13 games. Sure you may get Andrew Luck but at what cost? The entire locker room? Do you know what that would do to morale of young players and the morale of the Chiefs in general? I seriously can't believe you people. I never want another 2-14 season no matter who we get in return. Matt may not call you out but I will. I want to leave you with a quote from a dear friend:

"This is what's great about sports. This is what the greatest thing about sports is. You play to win the game. Hello? You play to win the game. You don't play it to just play it. That's the great thing about sports: you play to win, and I don't care if you don't have any wins. You go play to win. When you start tellin' me it doesn't matter, then retire. Get out! 'Cause it matters." - Following a reporter's question on the team's ability to win, on October 30, 2002 after a Week 8 loss to the Cleveland Browns left them at 2–5. After this speech however the Jets, sparked by the debut of Quarterback Chad Pennington, would go 7–2 and win the AFC Eastern Division Championship.

blockeater 13 pts

TrappedInDonkeyland I agree that I just can't get behind rooting for losses in the hope that we get Luck. I think we need to get him by trading up or doing what we can leading up to the draft, but not lose games.

The Thomas Jones debate should serve as humble pie to a lot of "homers" that thought nothing was wrong last year because we were winning. It was a dumb argument then and it is starting to show. Even the best teams in the NFL have problems that need fixed. We need to have a winning attitude and that includes ALWAYS believing you can get better.

KC MikeG 319 pts

TrappedInDonkeyland

THANKS TIDL! Your rational words broke the sucking sound drawing me into the pit of pessimism! Thank you! GO CHIEFS! I agree on TJ - thought that him losing a little weight and being used a little less would get us a better RB but I was wrong. Think I'm wrong in my support of Cassel too. Give him two more weeks and that's it. If we get Baldwin back and Haley uses the "MCBack combo" the offense will get rolling to help out the D for a change. If he would give Stanzi a shot Bowe, Baldwin, Breaston and Horne would be an awesome 4 WR set that would put up some serious points with someone who can move around the pocket and throw it more than 10 yards down field....how about Stanzi?

KC MikeG 319 pts

TrappedInDonkeyland

You play to win the game FANS! So get your butts out to Arrowhead Sunday and let's scream our lungs out showing the guys how much we want them to WIN!

KC Oracle 68 pts

TrappedInDonkeyland Love that Herm lives in the hearts of Chief fans. It is a great quote and a great story.

Also very good post. But I think you are conceptually wrong to the extent you think there is any realistic chance of the Chiefs making the playoffs this year. Once an analysist/fan comes to that conclusion, then the question is how should it affect who you play in the remaining games. I don't think anyone is suggesting the Chiefs deliverately lose. What we are suggesting is that they go to 100% youth mode to try to develop prospects and find out what they got, instead of playing veterans in the pursuit of a couple more victories in a 4 and 12 or even 6 and 10 season. You put the young guys in and, if they wind up going 2 and 14, and we get Luck, it is a great year. I doubt that 14 losses will traumatize any of the players. Next year would be a new and exciting year, with the best quarterback in college football coming on board.

TrappedInDonkeyland 243 pts

KC Oracle You will never make me believe 2-14 is EVER a great year. Sure 14 losses traumatizes players. Do you remember Flower's saying he never wants to go back to the 2008 Chiefs? It wasn't followed by "unless we get Luck, and then it's cool I guess". And getting the first overall pick (Luck) doesn't assure you of a Superbowl victory just ask;

Sam Bradford

Mathew Stafford

Jamarcus Russell

Carson Palmer

David Carr

Michael Vick

Tim Couch

Drew Bledsoe

Jeff George

Vinnie Testeverde

Steve Bartowski........

KC Oracle 68 pts

TrappedInDonkeyland Flowers is one of the guys we now depend upon and, presumably, would want to keep on the team after this year. Do you think he is still a reliable guy for the future, despite his 2 and 14 experience?

Are we better off with Luck (technically, Luck and Cassell) than our present quarterback?

If the answers to these questions are yes, than we should Suck for Luck (without deliberately throwing games)

TrappedInDonkeyland 243 pts

KC Oracle Sure Flowers is left but the majority are no longer with the team and MANY aren't even in the NFL. When you tank a season that bad coaches, schemes, and players go out the window. We start rebuilding again, probably another string of painful seasons. Luck isn't an instant fix, he's the reset button

Big Matt 199 pts

@KCTrappedInDonkeyland Oracle I get the logic behind Suck for Luck, its the reset button aspect I just can't deal with.

Big Matt 199 pts

TrappedInDonkeyland Yeah, we'd have to lose A LOT more games to get Luck. Tough to root for that, no matter the potential benefit. I mean we have to live in the here and now, you know? I won't say someone isn't a fan because that isn't for me to judge, but I can't in good conscience root for a 2-14 season. We've been there. It was aboslutely miserable.

Lets review the Saints/Chiefs comparison again:

Saints: went from 3-13 to 10-6, NFC championship game in first year. Finished middle of the pack in years 2 and 3, won the Super Bowl in year 4.
Chiefs: went from 2-14 to 4-12 first year, squeeked into the playoffs the second year due to the easiest schedule in the NFL, got blown out in the first round. Likely to finish well below .500 again in the third year.

Pretty different trajectories there, amigo. A quick, legitimate turnaround (NFC Championship!) that culminated in a Super Bowl run for one team.......rebuilding for the other.

Can't believe you're abandoning your boy Jones! In all seriousness though it would've been really nice to have drafted a running back in like the fifth round. Perfect place to draft a backup RB, really.

TrappedInDonkeyland 243 pts

Big Matt I understand it's not a parallel trajectory but there's never an identical path in the NFL. I guess the point I was trying to make is let's see how this plays out before we jump off the ledge. The team played a lot better Sunday. Teams have turned things around before

Baldwinner 6 pts

I have to say I agree with all of this, Matt. It's sad that we as fans are used to it. Though I believe if we get Luck and get rid of Haley, we have the opportunity to be Great for the next 15 years.

KC MikeG 319 pts

Scary but you're starting to make more sense to me. Could it be that Haley isn't saying that the criticism is unfair but the blind speculation of his and Pioli's relationship is waht's not right. I get what you're saying BM about the organization telling us more about what's going on but what benefit would there be to the team for Piloi to announce he can't stand Haley or that he's on the "hot seat". Just don't see how that would be anything but detrimental to the team.

Big Matt 199 pts

@KC MikeG I think he actually was referencing the speculation about his relationship with Pioli in particular. And you're right, airing their dirty laundry definitely wouldn't help anything.

It isn't just this though. They won't talk about ANYTHING. And when thats your attitude, people are going to speculate. I don't expect Haley to like it, but to publicly complain? To me that shows a real lack of self-awareness. Which is something both Haley and Pioli seem to have a problem with.

LyleGraversen 313 pts

I have to say that when it comes to the spending this season, you're starting to bring me around to your side. I guess when I looked at the resigning of our top talent and adding a few new starters like Breaston, McClain, and Gregg that he did fine in filling out the roster. I was blinded by my "homerness" and completely overlooked how poor the depth at the back end of the roster was. I'm a big enough man to say that you were right and I was wrong. I actually think our view of this team going forward this year are pretty similar.

KC MikeG 319 pts

LyleGraversen

Nooooooo Lyle! Don't go over the dark side! Wait, whats that sucking sound? Oh no something is drawing me towards Big Matt's thoughts. Can't you hear it it's this constant sucking sound like from a huge vacuum cleaner. Help! I'm losing my grip on my optimism...slipping away........help.......