Denver Was Better Than The Chiefs

The Denver Broncos were better than the Kansas City Chiefs on Sunday evening.

There. I said it. I suggest you say it out loud too. Maybe it will help you move past the “groans”, the “no-fairs” and the “what-ifs.”

Not to worry. The Broncos are probably leading the division for no more than the next seven days and then we’ll see who’s better when Denver visits Kansa City in 11 days. That may be presumptive on my part, yes but, with the Donkeys visiting the 7-2 New England Patriots (coming off a disappointing road loss to the Panthers) this coming weekend and the Chiefs playing host to the descending 4-6 San Diego Chargers, it’s safe to say the Chiefs could be leading the Broncos by a game — again — when the two meet next time in Arrowhead.

Could you look at the Chiefs game and take away some positives? Sure, but I’m going to stick with pointing out how the Broncos were better with the idea of seeing exactly how the Chiefs must change their game plan if they are going to come out on top in the next tiff.

First of all, the Broncos defense looked like the Chiefs defense was supposed to look. Sacking and knocking down the oppositions QB was not supposed to be the Denver scenario… it was supposed to be what the Chiefs were to do to the notorious Peyton Manning.

The team that wins… most of the time… in the NFL, is the team that sacks and knocks the opponents QB on his but and puts pressure on him throughout the game.

Denver was better… at doing that than the Chiefs.

I don’t want to hear about the fact that Peyton Manning releases the ball faster than a cobra releases his venom. Why have other teams gotten to him but not the Chiefs? I’ll put money on the game this coming Sunday evening and say that the Patriots get to Manning more than once. So, why can’t the Chiefs? That’s rhetorical and needs no discussion.

If the Chiefs are to have a winning effort in 11 days, they must flip that script.

If Alex Smith continues to be the Alex Smith we saw on Sunday evening, he will never have a rivalry with Peyton Manning. It’s the nature of competing. You must raise your level of play to match your adversaries or you will never be considered someone to fear. Right now, I don’t see it. Could it all turn around in 11 days? I hope so but, I didn’t see evidence that this will be happening soon. Does that make me an Alex Smith hater? Not nearly.

It’s just that Denver was better at the QB position on Sunday evening. No contest.

I moved to Kansas City in 1976. In 1978, as a 26 year old man I once had a competitive experience I’ll never forget. A gym I used to frequent and get involved in pick-up basketball games was nearly empty when I went to visit this particular day. In walked the 6-6 all-star forward for the local high school and he came over and asked me if I’d like to play a game to ten, one point per basket, you make it you take it. I said yes of course and before I go any further I should mention I am 5-11 on a good day and still dealing with two left knee surgeries which I have learned to manage but have often placed me at a disadvantage. I knew this young man was cocky and I took advantage of that. I hit my first shot from long range and so he had to respect that shot. The further out he moves the more I could fake him and get him in the air and move under him for protected shots on the other side of the rim where he couldn’t blocked my close in bank shots. I never doubted I could win… but knew I could lose. I stayed focus on what worked and even got creative by throwing the ball at the backboard and moving quickly to get my own rebounds. In the end… I won. He asked for another game immediately and I refused of course and told him I didn’t want to embarrass him. :)

I won because I raised my game to the competition, and beyond.

I didn’t see that on Sunday evening. Personally, I believe the K.C. Chiefs are a more talented team than the Denver Broncos. However, on Sunday evening, Denver was better.

The Chiefs are a still a relatively young team and home cooking the next two weeks will taste mighty good.

As much as it may not seem like it, Sunday’s loss was  the best determiner so far this season of where the Chiefs are at in their progression as a growth franchise. Did any of you really believe the Chiefs were the best team in the league? When we design tests for students we build in questions that challenge the students and this game tells us more about the Chiefs than we would have learned had the Chiefs won.

There were defensive failings on Sunday for sure but, the offensive missteps were just as critical to the Chiefs subpar performance.

From the 9 yard line, with 3:07 left in the first quarter, the Broncos TE Julius Thomas catches a TD pass as he crosses the goal. It looked like a number of  Chiefs could have made a play on that ball but clearly, Quintin Demps gets turned around and just like that it’s Denver 10, Chiefs nothing.

Still the Chiefs were in this game until the end of the day. However, do you really learn anything about these Chiefs by saying that. Not really. We already knew this group would battle to the bitter end. The only difference here was the bitter ending.

It’s far more important that this young and talented football team learns what can be learned. If the Chiefs allow the Broncos near the 9 or 10 yard line in 11 days, they should remember the play above. Had Demps turned the other way, he would have intercepted the ball and that game would have taken on a dramatically alternate personality.

From the one yard line, Broncos RB Montee Ball runs the ball over the left guard for a TD as Akeem Jordan guesses and jumps the wrong gap allowing Ball to waltz in uncontested. Denver 17, Chiefs 7.

Plays like the ones both Jordan and Demps’ … didn’t… make seemed to typify the Chiefs play all day long, still the Chiefs were in this game until the end of the day.

Just as the Chiefs offense began the game with a major case of the jitters… including 3 separate 3 and outs…

…still the Chiefs were in this game until the end of the day.

I read where Sports Illustrated’s Don Banks believes this game may have have exposed Kansas City’s possible fatal flaw — that they can’t play catch up football. Well, as much as I might have agreed with him before this game was played, now that the final whistle has blown this one away, my lasting impression is that the Chiefs competed until the end. Had the Chiefs scored in their final drive, there would ultimately have been an onside kick. Once you make that onside kick… it’s anybodies game.

Ask any Broncos fan if they thought they had the game sown away before their final possession and I’m sure 100 out of 100 will tell you no.

Sometimes we over-analyze games and project what we believe was supposed to be an outcome that never really materialized.

The Broncos didn’t massively outscore the Chiefs in this game. Didn’t happen.

The Broncos didn’t expose the Chiefs as miserable wannabes. Didn’t happen.

Am I saying that there were moral victories here? NO, that’s not what I’m talking about at all. I’m saying this game was exactly what it was. A hotly contested game down the last possession between two closely matched clubs who both faltered along the way.

A classy game? Not really. One to learn from. If you’re a Chiefs player, most definitely.

When you’re only down 17-10 at halftime and your defense comes up with 3 straight stops… but you do nothing to move closer in scoring… there are lessons to be learned there. It’s almost as if the Broncos set the Chiefs up for a comeback or a big play but they didn’t take the opportunity to get it done. That’s a chance for Andy Reid to get creative with the play calling and use of personnel packages on the field. That’s a chance for individual players to step forward and make a big play or even take a risk to make something happen.

However, that’s exactly what didn’t happen and will have to change before 11 days from now.

The Chiefs secondary played almost exclusively man to man coverage and while you can argue that they held the Broncos below their season averages, including total points (27 instead of 41) the use of some zone coverage and masking the zone with this personnel will take some more time to develop… however, it’s an important way the secondary could give the front seven more time to get to Manning. Which, is exactly what they couldn’t do at any point in the game.

I don’t think they ever got close enough to see the whites of his eyes.

To beat Peyton Manning the Chiefs must “frustrate” him early and often. In this way, that game was bass-ackwards. It was the Chiefs who were often frustrated. Yes, they competed and kept the game close all the way but if you placed a finger on the pulse of the Arrowhead Addict Hardcore’s who were posting during the game, I’ve never heard or felt a higher frustration level. Not even at any point during the 2-14 season of 2012.

Now, expectations are heightened. Which is as they should be, especially when you go 9-0 and lead the universe in defense. However, the “Chiefs” played like “braves,” which is not so much to say they played bravely, as it is to say they did NOT live up to expectations.

So, on this day, Denver was better.

Now, I am in no way saying Denver is better. In fact, after this game I have a much better sense of where the two teams are at and I still believe the Chiefs are a better team. They simply have to learn from their mistakes.

Or, they will surely be proving Albert Einstein’s insanity equation:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

There was probably no moment in this game that embodied Einstein’s idiom more than turning the ball over the moment after the Broncos turned the ball over. If you compare the turnover battle to all the other Chiefs games… not so much from a numbers standpoint which is important… but from a guttural… emotional… place, it’s the momentum spectrum that swung faster than a monkey on a rope.

Those back to back plays took the Chiefs players from… AHH, FINALLY, YES, LET’S GO… to… OHH FUGDE, DAMMIT, CRAAAAAAP EPIC FAIL! Back to back plays like that can turn pure Mo-Jo and to pure animal bi-product bio fuel that can’t be used in any known machine.

It’s going from miracle moment to miracle whipped.

The pattern of the Chiefs leading in the giveaway-takeaway battle this season was not evident in this particular game but there’s no reason to believe that it won’t raise it’s totally gnarly head again this weekend and stick around the rest of the season.

Our beloved game of pro football is stuck with many an ear weary credo like: this is a quarterback driven league.

They should instead say…

this is a giveaway-takeaway league or…

this is a sack driven league or…

this is a who can score the most points league or,

this is a who can hold the other team to the least points league.

This game was a good example of this not being a “quarterback driven” league. Yes, Peyton played a good solid game but the game was won and lost for many other, perhaps more important, reasons. Like the mistakes that were made.

Now pick up your glass of water and raise a toast to learning from our mistakes.

The Chiefs better… or it’s back to the future with Einstein.

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Tags: KC Chiefs

  • Calchiefsfan

    Great article Laddie, we were just outplayed. No question. My hope is the same as yours, that they will grow from this. This team has toughness and character. I expect them to come out strong against the Chargers. Playing at home will help but even if they weren’t they would still be coming out more determined.

    I really don’t fault the D in this game. The offense just never took advantage. Too many missed opportunities. That being said i can’t help but get the feeling that they are close to taking it up another level. The O line is playing better and Smith is starting to throw it down field. Smith and the WR’s just need to clean it up a bit. I hope we see better execution against the Chargers. If that happens the Chiefs will destroy them.

  • Richard Spreier

    The Broncos have twice the talent the Chiefs have, even on defense. The Chiefs can’t keep up on offense and they can’t stop the Broncos on Defense. The only teams the Chiefs have beaten have been bad teams with back up QB’s

    • Calchiefsfan

      Nice try troll

      • ladner morse

        “Troll-la-la-la-la, La-la-la-laaaa”

    • Frank

      Say that as much as you want. Don’t worry about facts to prove it.

      • ladner morse

        Some people have “proof” and some only have…… “poof!”

    • Danny W

      LOL. How many pro bowler’s that defense have again?

      • Richard Spreier

        How many wins did your team have last year, again? Oh, that’s right basically none. Must have been fun watching from the sidelines.

    • Josh Landers

      The broncos obviously have a better offense than everyone in the league. That’s no mystery. However, the chiefs held them to their lowest scoring output of the season. The broncos defense is average, at best, and the numbers are there to prove it. Their pass d hovers around 30, which should before like 20-25 due to opposing teams playing from behind all the time. Still pedestrian. Their run d is top 5 but should probably be around 10-15 for the same reason listed above. I don’t know if you noticed or not, but, the donkeys haven’t played anyone either (minus the loss to the colts).

      • ladner morse

        I vote you the “Broncos-Buster” of the day!!!
        Great post!

        • Josh Landers

          Wow! Thanks! I didn’t even know that title existed. Lol.

      • Richard Spreier

        You’re right. They “only” scored 28 points, and talking about average defenses, Peyton Manning, even with his bad ankle, was never touched. You’re not dealing with the backup QB for Cleveland so you can pad stats. I will give you a hint: The Chiefs better never play from behind against the Broncos. If the Broncos get more than a touchdown lead, Alex Smith will complete maybe 50% of his passes, and the stampede will be on.

        • Josh Landers

          It’s obvious that you didn’t watch the game. Kc rarely blitzed manning (for obvious reasons). And we DID play from behind the whole game. Obviously, we lost. We’ll see what happens in arrowhead.

        • Josh Landers

          And btw, they scored 27.

    • Eric

      Please. You moron. The Chiefs and Donkeys have played almost same schedule with exception of Indy which the jackasses lost. Chiefs D is 100 times better than Denver. The offense is another story. With Smith at QB we as fans will be in for a few more let downs this year.

      • ladner morse

        I don’t know why Broncos fans don’t get that — that the two teams have played virtually the same schedule… and by the end of the year I believe there’ll only be two games played different!

      • Richard Spreier

        Yeah, moron, you forgot one thing. THE BRONCO’S KICKED THE CHIEF’S BUTTS! That killer defense couldn’t even touch PM. Stay in your fantasy world, moron.

    • ladner morse

      There are “wannabees” and “wishabees”… you would be a wishabee.
      EX: “Gee, I wish da Broncos be winning against the Ravens in the playoffs last year.”

      • Richard Spreier

        Talk about wishabees. “I wish my team would have won, what 5 games?”. You’ll be saying the same thing in 2 weeks, “I wish my team would have beaten the Broncos”.

    • elly violette

      Can you even name one player on the Broncos defense that is better than a player on the Chiefs defense besides Von Miller? On the flip side… there are several players on the Chiefs offense than there are on the Broncos offense like JC, Albert, Sherman and Bowe.

      • Richard Spreier

        Well, really not that hard. How many sacks did the Chief’s have? Oh, that’s right, zero. How many times did they hit PM? Oh, that’s right, zero. There isn’t a player on the Chief’s team that could start on the Bronco’s. They’re all frauds padding stats against backup QB’s for bad teams.

  • Jared Watson

    I’m ready to get back on the field and make teams pay for what happened Sunday night.

    • ladner morse

      Love that mentality — MAKE EM PAY!!!!!!!

    • elly violette

      This will be an important game for the Chiefs too. I hope they will focus upon beating the Chargers or the next game with the Broncos will be a desperate one.

  • Jarad

    Great article! But i highly disagree with the small note that 100 of 100 Broncos wouldnt think the gme was over prior to the last possession. The Chiefs were getting next to a 0% chance in this game when u talk to Denver fans. Sadly enough, i was around plenty in Ft Worth. They weren’t worried for a second. But, oh how sweet will week 13 be when Manning doesnt get his piece and quiet at the line and 91&50 are constantly leaving Arrowhead stains on that precious jersey!!! Time for Reid to live up to that QB guru title and lay 30+ on some people! I’ll finally be up there for the Colts game to yell nonstop. Until then ,GO CHIEFS!!! Next step 10-1

    • ladner morse

      The only reason why 100 out of 100 Broncos fans might not say that…. is because 100 out of 100 Broncos fans are not reasonable and thoughtful.
      It’s just a fact… until the Broncos took over with their last possession… the game was in doubt… and that was easy enough to read on the faces of all the Broncos players along the sideline until that very moment.

      • Jarad

        I totally agree! Just shows how blinded “fans” can be. It was a dismal offensive performance by KC, and yet they were right in the game! 1st and goal at the 2 , get a turnover inside their 20 and only come out with 3 points!?!? With this years team, it wont get much worse offensively. They’ll play better, the D , i hope will make some adjustments in coverage and the CHIEFS will be in great shape to host a divisional round playoff game!!!

      • Richard Spreier

        You really need to get a clue. You don’t have to be “reasonable and thoughtful” to realize that the game was over as soon as they had a 10 point lead. The Chiefs never challenged at any point. You really need to pull your head out of…….the sand.

  • Stacy D. Smith

    I think the coaching staff just conceded that they wouldn’t get to Manning. I also think Manning was determined not to take sacks no matter what. He was releasing the back in 2.5 seconds most of the time. It’s tough to get there that quickly. Though I never would’ve stopped trying. Sutton seemed to settle into not blitzing him often and trying to confuse him with coverages.

    Gotta disagree with you on Smith. That was one of the best games he’s played all season. +1.6 according to PFF (better than Manning on Sunday night). He took shots down the field. Probably a half-dozen. I want to see that Alex Smith more often. If he can continue playing that way and the receivers can 86 the drops, this offense will improve.

    To your overall point, Denver was just the better team.
    I think it’ll be a different story at Arrowhead though.

    • ladner morse

      I would agree this was one of his best games… but if you compared it to Manning’s worst game this season… it’s still not as good. That’s the point when you go head to head… you have to match… not just play better than you usually do.

      Alex Smith vs Broncos = 21 of 45 for 230 yds, 49.2% and a 77.1 rating.
      Manning’s worst game = 28 of 42 for 295 yds, 66.7% and a 92.9 rating.

    • elly violette

      I’m with you and believe that the Chiefs will play much differently and have a different outcome when they play next weekend. I just hope they don’t look past the Chargers.

  • Danny W

    Not a quarterback driven league? Sir we disagree here. If the Chiefs had a better quarterback this game goes our way hands down. Those three stops at the end of half time would have been capitalized on.

    • redchiefs

      Excuse me, the QB didn’t drop the passes, the QB didn’t fumble the ball on Denver’s 20 yard line and the QB didn’t fail to block. The QB isn’t on the field giving up 27pts nor on the field for any special teams failures like blocks in the back and defensive holding. Sir, this is a team game and I’d suggest that the people around the QB had far more to do with the loss than Alex Smith.

      • Danny W

        So Alex Smith doesn’t make any bad throws? get real.

    • jimfromkcj

      Danny, if the off lines were reversed, the Chiefs would have won this game. Our off line would have got Peyton carted off the field. Hali and Houston would have had a feast.

      • Danny W

        Jim the line did fine in this game. He had four and five seconds to throw the ball every throw.

    • ladner morse

      Danny… yes I think there is too much emphasis being put on the QB, as if he’s the only one on the field. 6 Pro Bowlers last year (in a 2-14 “chumpaign”) and I’m sure the Chiefs will have a slew this season…. and I’m fairly sure Alex Smith won’t be one of them. The many contributors the Chiefs have can’t be understood by saying, “it’s QB-driven league.”

    • elly violette

      My father was a mechanic so I’ll compare a team to a car. The steering wheel is the QB… the OL are the tires…. the braking system is the defense… the coaches are the gasoline…. the fans are even the wind which gives the car some extra power. The point I’d like to make is… I think Morse has it right… there are many different parts to a team that make it go. Not just a QB. Not to say a QB is not important but… al the others are very important too.

      • Danny W

        Good analogy. I would switch the coaches with the quarterbacks though. A team could still play/go down the road with out coaches. The car doesn’t stop with out the steering wheel. It will hit a ditch or a tree, though. So not good with out coaches. But the quarterback is the fuel. The gasoline. With gas a car doesn’t go. You can get down the road on fumes for only so long the in the crunch to win the race it takes a good tank of gas. If you don’t have you don’t finish let alone place.

  • ILChiefan

    Nice to see credit given where it belongs……..we were outplayed. That being said, I hope the team is doing a better job focusing on the task at hand than most fans and bloggers are doing; the focus right now HAS to be on San Diego, not last Sunday, not next Sunday. Looking at the blogs and articles, more are dealing with Denver than San Diego. Move on, get back on the winning track, and (as Coach Reid preaches), play one game at a time.

  • Erik Hild

    Alex Smith is the best QB we have had since Trent Green. Our offensive line is the youngest in the league. With time the oline will get better and that will help Alex Smith become more consistent.

    • ladner morse

      Yes… In some ways I’ve been wishing the Chiefs could have started out NEXT SEASON with a 9 game win streak because I think the whole team will have developed and gelled a lot more by then!

      • Calchiefsfan

        If they’re better next year who says they won’t start out 9-0…or better!

        • elly violette

          For that to happen the Chiefs need to make sure they can run the ball and get minutes off the clock that way. If they have that kind of balance then the defense will even look more wonderful.

          • Calchiefsfan

            With the O line coming together and the continued emergence of Knile Davis to spell Jamaal we should be able to improve on the running game. I wish Reid would call more running plays for Charles this year.

  • jimfromkcj

    Laddie, the Broncos did just what they wanted to do in this game. They wanted a win, and they wanted Peyton to come out of the game without re injuring his ankles. If they had gone balls to the wall, the score would probably have been more lop sided. But for the most part, they stuck with shorter passes that they could get the ball out before the rush could get to him. A masterful game plan to fit their needs. I only wish our game planners were as good. By the way, the only position where I think the Chiefs are better than the Broncos is running back. If it wasn’t for Charles we would have next to nothing on offence. And it looks like they are running him into the ground when Cromartie runs him down from behind.

    • ladner morse

      Jim… good post all the way around. Would agree about the planning… they did better than the Chiefs planners.

      However… the Chiefs only better at RB?

      You’d take Von Miller and Shaun Phillips over Houston & Hali?
      You’d take who on the Denver D-line over Dontari Poe?
      You’d take Woodyard over DJ?
      You’d take Ienacho over EB?
      You’d take Cromartie or Bailey (in his aged state) over Flowers, Smith or Cooper?
      I can’t think of anyone (except Miler) who I’d want over a Chiefs player on Defense.

      On Offense… the Broncos have plenty of superior players but only one along the OL (Zane Beadles) that I’d take over a Chiefs Offensive lineman. Bowe “can” be special and the Broncos don’t have a Sherman type player on their roster.

      On Special teams I’ll stick with our Colquitt, Succop and McCluster/Demps. Trindon Holliday can be special but has really been any better than McCluster this season.

  • trinity

    The chiefs are a better team than the broncos? Ha, that is absolutely laughable! Wake up to reality and call it what it is. The chiefs are a team with a very talented defense, and a flat, mistake-prone offense. Led by a game manager who considers throwing 10 yards down field a “long pass”. In order to beat peyton, you must score points. The chiefs simply cannot.

    • ladner morse

      Chiefs defense is #2 in the league now in points allowed.
      Chiefs offense is #17 in points scored.
      Broncos offense is #1… no doubt.
      But Broncos defense is #23 in the league.

      Y O U D O T H E M A T H .

      I’ll stick by my original statement: the Chiefs are a better “team” than the Broncos.

      • trinity

        The fact is that the broncos defense can stay right where it is. That statement is proven by the fact that they are the top team in the AFC DESPITE being 23rd overall on defense. That is because when you’ve got peyton manning, you simply don’t need amazing defense. On the other hand, if you have Alex smith, you need amazing defense, and amazing everything else. Anyone who knows anything about football knows that the only way to beat peyton, again , is to score with him. Alex Smith and the chiefs offense simply cannot, and that’s why i find your position absolutely laughable.

        • elly violette

          Let’s see what happens after the Broncos travel to play the New England Patriots and the then the Chiefs in K.C. over the next couple weeks. I’m wondering if you’ll show your face here if the Broncos lose either of those games or don’t break 20 points in either of those games?

          • trinity

            Elly, i admit that i am genuinely not sure the broncos can win the patriots game. Because i know that Brady is more than capable of putting up points, even though this hasn’t been his best year. But the chiefs are led by Alex smith. I point that out once again, because i don’t even know how you chiefs fans can even say “Alex Smith” without cringing. That offense? Let me put it to you this way…when the broncos jumped out to that initial 10-0 lead, i knew the game was in hand. Because i knew even that lead was too much for the chiefs offense to overcome. In the end, i was proven right.

          • elly violette

            IN THE END… you were wrong because 10 points was not enough. The Chiefs scored 17 points and looked like they could have even scored more if not for a few bad breaks. I admit the Broncos have a good offense……. but you don’t seem to be able to admit that what the Chiefs have is good too. I wonder why? Hmm.

          • trinity

            You misunderstood me. I was not saying the 10 points was all it would take, i was saying that 10 points is too much for the chiefs mediocre offense to overcome. I was right, because Denver led the game start to finish. You say i don’t want to give the chiefs offense credit? Very simply, this is because i have eyes. So i know that outside of Charles, there is very little to give their offense credit for.

          • elly violette

            Alex Smith is a good QB. Everyone knows Peyton Manning is one of the best QBs ever so there’s no need to argue that. However, I don’t think you’re being fair to Smith. It’s almost as if you think he’s had no positive impact on the Chiefs 9-1 record this season. Or on the 49ers the last two season’s he was 22-5 and you think he had nothing to do with that. Come on… 31-6 and you think he’s a bad QB? How about if he beats Manning in 9 days? Would you give him any credit for being a good QB then?

          • Richard Spreier

            He is fine if playing with a lead. If he has to bring the team back from a 10+ deficit, he can’t do it.

          • Richard Spreier

            They looked like they had no chance at any time in the game. As a Bronco fan, I wasn’t worried at all after they took the lead. Look, I hate the Raiders, but don’t feel that way about the Chiefs. In fact, if the Chiefs were to beat the Broncos in the playoffs, I would actually root for them to go all the way, but honestly, they are a franchise QB away from doing that.

      • Richard Spreier

        If that were true, they would have won. The facts are, they have no chance. You can’t judge the Chief’s defense by the stats they pile up against back up QB’s with bad teams. The facts are they didn’t even touch PM even though he could barely walk, and they gave up 28 points when the Broncos weren’t even playing well. Keep living in your fantasy world.

  • elly violette

    I couldn’t agree more about the back to back turnovers. One moment I was ecstatic and the next moment I felt like some pulled the chair out from underneath me. I can’t imagine what the Chiefs players went through at that moment. Whatever it was, I’m sure it didn’t help them at all.