The Counterpoint: Kent Babb’s Article Smells Like Sour Grapes

by Armchair Addict

This article is the “counterpoint” to Big Matt’s piece from earlier today. Make sure you check it out if you haven’t yet.

If there is anyone that still hasn’t read Kent Babb’s piece from this weekend, shame on you. Go read it right now, it is fascinating and a really great read. I mean, the picture it paints of the Chiefs organization is the stuff movies are made of.

The scene: Arrowhead Stadium

As a local reporter leaves the latest boring Chiefs press conference, he is pulled into a back hallway by a wild-eyed man. This man clearly hasn’t shaved in a month and, by the looks of his clothes and hat, he may not have bathed or changed clothes is just as long.

“Kent, I need to talk to you, but it’s not safe to talk here. The buildings are all bugged and I think they’ve gotten to my cell phone too.”

“Coach, are you okay? You don’t look so good,” the reporter replies.

“Shhhhhhhh!!! Don’t even call me. I’ll find a way to get in touch with you. In the mean time, I’ve figured out how to fight back. A few more Tyler Palko starts and their attendance numbers should bottom out. That will hit them where they’ll feel it: their precious bottom line!”

And with that, the wild eyed coach turns and disappears into the shadows, leaving the reporter to ponder just what is going on inside this organization.

Meanwhile, upstairs in the secret Arrowhead surveillance room, Mark Donovan turns to Scott Pioli.

“Well Scott, you were right. Haley’s gone rogue. What do you want to do? Put him at the bottom of the river? Hold his family hostage?”

Pioli replies, “No, not yet anyway. He’s so far gone at this point nobody will believe anything he says. We’ll just fire him.”

“Are you sure? I’m kind of bored with firing people at this point,” Donovan questions.

“Yes, we’ll let it go for now. The media will get over a firing a lot faster than a whacking, so it’ll mean less questions for me to not answer. Now get on it! Oh, and Mark, did I hear that your secretary had a birthday yesterday?” Pioli quizzes.

“Yes, she turned 40.”

“That’s what I thought. Make sure she cleans out her desk by tomorrow,” Pioli demands.

“But Scott,” Donovan reasons, ”she really is a great secretary, the best I’ve ever had.”

“You know that doesn’t matter; if they’re old, they’re fired. It’s the only way we can win football games. Now excuse me, I have to take this bucket full of cash up to Mr. Hunt so he can roll around in it.”

“Of course Scott, I don’t know what I was thinking,” Donovan mumbles as he leaves the room.

Later that day, as Donovan’s secretary carries her belongings out to her car, a tear running down her cheek, she reminisces about the good old days when GM Carl Peterson would greet each employee at the door as they came in to work with a big hug and some home made baked goods. Ah, those wonderful days of yore when working for the Chiefs was like a warm slice of heaven.

End Scene

Makes a great story, doesn’t it?

Now, I’ll be the first to admit that the Chiefs front office has made some mistakes, but I think things may be just a little less sinister than what the media is making them out to be. My thoughts after the jump.

Let me get a couple things out of the way right out of the gate. The bad press that the Chiefs organization is getting right now is a product of their own doing. Here’s what we know:

The Chiefs are one of the most secretive organizations in football. Therefore, the media has less information to work with.

The Chiefs have fired many of the employees from the old Lamar Hunt/Carl Peterson days. That means there are a lot of former Chiefs employees that aren’t very happy about the changes that have taken place.

The Chiefs have been one of the lowest spending teams in the NFL over the last several years.

The Chiefs have a record of 21-27 in the three seasons since Scott Pioli took over as GM.

No one can dispute any of those things. So if you’re waiting for me to argue any of those points, you’ll be very disappointed. When you are as secretive as the Chiefs, you alienate both the media and the fans. When you don’t spend money AND you don’t win, you get some very frustrated fans. So then, when it comes time to evaluate the firing of several employees and the way Arrowhead is being run, of course both the media and fans are going to be hard on the Chiefs. They set themselves up for it.

Let’s start with some quotes from Scott Pioli after just a few months on the job as the Chiefs GM.

“You prepare for the job and part of what you do in the preparation for a general manager job is you look at the roster, the coaching staff, and all of the football aspects. Deep down inside you know there are things that affect the football operation but you can’t see or touch until you’re immersed in the situation. No matter how prepared you are for any job in life, I’m convinced you can be as prepared as you want to be and there are things that are unknown that you have to deal with that impact the job. And that’s the case here. It’s not just rebuilding the roster. It’s changing the culture of a lot of things of the football operation itself and things that affect the football operation.”

So Pioli told us in advance that he wanted to reshape the entire organization. One would have to imagine that would involve replacing some of Peterson’s people, right? Does that make him a bad GM?

Keep in mind, Babb even stated toward the end of his piece that Peterson replaced seven of the 10 department heads when he took over as well. Not to mention the fact that “King Carl,” the man 99 percent of Chiefs fans wanted run out of town with torches and pitchforks, has somehow become a man that did things “the right way” in just three short years. Who cares that the team wasn’t winning, we had more informative press conferences and the business executives had a more friendly work environment, for crying out loud!

The bottom line is wins, and if the Chiefs can build a Super Bowl team everyone will become huge Pioli fans and praise the way he “cleaned house” when it came to Peterson’s leftovers. If he loses, he’ll be a jerk who fired people.

Let me make this VERY CLEAR: neither Big Matt nor myself (nor Kent Babb for that matter) have the slightest idea of how well the people that have been fired by the Chiefs did their job. So speculating as to why they were fired is just that, speculation. There are two general possibilities:

A – They were really hard workers who did everything Pioli and company asked of them. They bought into the new vision of what their bosses wanted the franchise to become and were still fired anyway just because they were old and worked for Carl Peterson.

or

B – The employees that were fired had grown comfortable in their jobs and what they did under the old regime and had a hard time adjusting to the new expectations placed on them. After a period of time, it was deemed that they weren’t doing things to the liking of those that are ultimately responsible for the success of the franchise and were let go and replaced with people who the higher ups felt were a better match for their new way of doing things.

Now–in my opinion–one of those options seems more logical, and the other seems like it would make a better newspaper story. I’ll let you decide which one you think is more likely to be what really happened.

Let me ask you this. Why is it that if a football player is let go because he wasn’t doing his job well enough we all cheer (imagine how you’ll feel when Sabby Piscitelli is finally cut), but if the front office does the same thing to someone who sits behind a desk they are heartless tyrants? I think the answer is twofold. First, we want to see the team on the field get better so we’re excited at the possibility of the roster improving when a player is cut. Second, we can relate to the person behind the desk. We think “that could be me” much more then we do with Piscitelli. But, from the Chiefs’ perspective, isn’t the objective the same?

Here is a quote from Babb’s article that addresses if the Chiefs organization is better off because of the changes:

“No one could be successful in that environment,” a former director-level employee said.

Melton left the Chiefs in 2010 after arriving at a similar conclusion. More than a year later, she was asked if she could see any benefit from the changes. After a long pause, she answered.

“I’m sure there’s some good that has come out of it,” she said. “I would be hard-pressed to be able to identify that right now, without really thinking about it. I don’t think our football team is any better; I don’t think our fans are being any more well-served.”

She paused again.

“I couldn’t tell you,” she said. “I’m sorry. I’m not very helpful in that regard.”

Melton is quoted earlier in the article, saying:

“We all had to step to the beat of his drum, but we all kept questioning: ‘How is this building a better football team?’ ”

So that’s an unbiased opinion from a former Chiefs employee that chose to leave the organization, right? Well, what Babb subtly slipped in earlier is that Melton’s father, Steve Cox, is one of the three employees suing the Chiefs for age discrimination. So I’d say she has a little bit of an axe to grind. That’s my main complaint with Babb’s piece. How are people who have lost their jobs supposed to feel? Who is going to go on record saying “The team is much better off now that they fired me?” Is the fact that people who were fired during an administration change don’t like how the new administration is doing business really news?

Hasn’t the team improved since Pioli came on board? Maybe not as quickly as you would like, maybe he hasn’t made the same moves as you would like to see, but the team is better isn’t it?

What about the “other areas” that Pioli has talked about? Well, how about the scouting department? The Chiefs had a couple pretty good drafts before Pioli arrived. Then the one draft where it was Pioli working with the old personnel/scouting people was a disaster. Then, once Pioli got “his people” in place, the drafts have been better (again, maybe not perfect, but clearly better then the first one). So it appears Pioli works better with “his people” in that regard. Maybe the people that Pioli brought in aren’t technically any “better” but if Pioli works better with them, isn’t that what we all want?

One more example: the Chiefs’ website. Before the regime change, the website was awful. It was visually terrible and rarely had anything worth seeing other than press conferences. Now the website looks as up-to-date as any in the NFL. The videos put out by 65 Toss Power Trap Productions are outstanding. From funny segments by comedians Paul Rudd and Rob Riggle to pieces on how Chiefs fans were impacted by the Joplin tornadoes and 9/11, they are turning out first-rate productions. The Chiefs raised the bar, just like Scott Pioli said they would. This may have involved firing some people that were involved in the website and video productions under Carl Peterson. The website and 65 TPT don’t help the team win any more games, so was this a good move? Again, I’ll let you make the call on if that was a good decision or not.

In conclusion, do I think that the Chiefs are too secretive? Yes.

Is it silly that employees have to close their office blinds during practices? Yes.

Do I believe that Scott Pioli had Todd Haley’s personal cell phone tapped? No.

Do I think Scott Pioli and Mark Donovan would fire someone that was doing a great job, exactly to their liking, just because of their age? No.

Do I think they felt any obligation to keep someone on staff just because they had worked there a long time? No.

Do I think the entire Chiefs organization is better off today than it was five years ago under Carl Peterson? Yes.

Do I think Scott Pioli has made some mistakes? Sure I do.

Have I given up on him being able to build a Super Bowl caliber team in KC? No.

Should the Chiefs go out and spend some money this offseason to prove to the fans that they are trying to build a winner and not just turn a profit? Yes.

Will the success of Pioli, Donovan and Hunt ultimately be shaped much more by the team’s wins and losses than their secretive ways and office personnel decisions? Yes.

Was Kent Babb’s piece an entertaining read? Yes.

Did it change my opinion on any of these things that I’ve just listed? No, it did not.

It sure would make for a good movie though, wouldn’t it?

As always, thanks for reading and GO CHIEFS!!!!

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I think it's both. Pioli comes into town and goes all CIA secrecy tactics on people that had been there a very long time. This coupled with a regime change made people nervous, uncomfortable, and there obviously wasn't a lot of communication to relieve the stress. People that are constantly worried and nervous perform poorly and thus lose their jobs. Add this into the percent that needed to go and you have high turnover. Those people were obviously pissed off about losing their jobs. Doesn't mean Pioli intended it, but nonetheless his management style was responsible for a portion. Also, I am a manager and if my people left trash on the floor for weeks I think that would be a sign that there needed to be a culture change. Although it was a back stairwell and who knows how often people used it... Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. I wonder how well founded the description of Haley was, and I hope it was severely exaggerated, because otherwise the man had obviously cracked. Winning cures everything, and I think with the development of our defense there should be substantially more of it next season. Kudos on both of these pieces, they were very well done.

I hate to mention another Chiefs website but if anyone gets over to Gretz's aritcle on BobGretz.com he states that the Chiefs threatened to fire the KC star several times over the article. Threatened that if the Star didnt name thier anonymous sources that the team would file against the paper. Sounds like the brass was pretty nervous about it to me. Read Bobs article or half of it because you have to be a premium member for the rest but the first half is pretty telling.

let's ask Tony Gonzales. sheesh.

This is a well written article, and THIS fan appreciates content like above.

I need to apologize to everyone on this story. I just heard from a "national media type", forgot his name already, who does not follow the Chiefs "all that much". The NFL is a "paranoid league". "Cameras, spying, and listening" are fairly common "practices" to one degree or another. The Babb article is a tempest in a teapot. Business as usual. The change over of staff happen with new managers. I imagine if the Chiefs won a few more games or had better results this would have had a 24 hour run and get down the road.

At 11:30 today, Babb is on for a live chat at the KC Star Website.

One last point is that our division is so weak that you could, to paraphrase the most famous words ever uttered by Haley, get a guy off the street to be GM and he would win a division title with this team. So, if winning a division title is the measure, Pioli warts and all is likely to succeed. If you are interested in winning multiple playoff games, not without a better quarterback.

I have to admit that the timing of this article bothers me a bit. Printing it now, it can only hurt the Chiefs. Yet, I find nothing in this story that is so time sensitive that it warrants being printed now. Put this together with my belief that more research could've been done and it gets a little more bothersome. Even the fact that Pioli wasn't made available for comment can come into play because if he's asked about it now he can merely sight the fact that he is busy looking for new staff, scouting the East-West game, scouting the Senior Bowl, creating a list of free agents to target, re-signing Carr and Bowe, and preparing for the draft. Hold off and print it later and maybe you get a Pioli quote or at least keep him searching for a good reason as to why he couldn't comment. Bit of a rant there, sorry.

@Ehud I didn't even think about the timing. Would waiting have given them a chance at a Pioli quote? If so, maybe they should've. I don't know though, I think Donovan is just their guy for this stuff.

Or, PIoli could have been too busy policing the stairwell for candy wrappers. I think everyone knows Pioli could have commented or submitted a written statemetn if he thought it was in his interest to do so. Instead, they assembled 8 employees and had Donavan do their talking.

@KC Oracle Agreed, Pioli easily could have dropped a quote. Instead he used his usual lameass tactics. The part of Ehud's point I found intrigueing is the idea of eliminating possible reasons for him not to give a quote. Come to him at a particularly down time. Of course, you can't expect Babb to wait months for that, and Pioli could always beg off and claim draft prep, I guess.

@Big Matt@KC Oracle@Ehud I thought the wording was curious. "Pioli, who was not made available by the team for this story ... " Usually you'll see reporters phrase this as, "was not available." But Babb uses the passive voice, which is usually frowned upon in journalism, so it makes me wonder about his request to speak with Pioli and the resulting conversation.

Btw Lyle, this was an extremely well written, and entertaining read. That is a fact. If you want oppinion, I also think it is spot on accurate.

Why is this story getting so much coverage? I mean laid off employees with an axe to grind also get a case of diaherea of the mouth. Why would Romeo Crennel, who by several accounts was wanted for interviews by several teams, sign with the Chiefs before even interviewing with another organization? Obviously he thinks it is a great place to be. I also found it funny that the majority of the pro organizational talk in the article had peoples names right with it, and a large amount of the negative talk was annonymous... hmm makes it easier for Babb to embelish... so no one gave him a good quote, why not make one up and say the person would only speak annonymously... perfect. And even better, the naive masses love to hate on the organization, and will eat it up, and make up the excuses for him. Really... no one who wasn't canned is tired of this treatment, no one is brave enough to risk their job by speaking out, not one person! When there is smoke there is fire! Ha, when there is injustice there are whistle blowers... only the losers who were replaced are talking. If this is all true and no one will take a stand, well then they deserve whatever treatment they get. Grow a pair or stop complaining.

Question for those of you in the business world. Can Hunt/Pioli/Donovan legally fire anyone they want at any time? In other words, if they didn't like most of Carl's people could they just say "you're all fired" and hire all new people right then and there or does that set them up for some kind of wrongful termination lawsuit? Obviously I know there are discrimination laws that could prevent them from firing all of a certain group (age, sex, race, etc.) but if its a mixed group do they have to have a legitimate justification?

@LyleGraversen not sure in Missouri. I live in Florida and we are classified as a "right to work" state. Because of that an employer has the right to terminate any person for any reason not related to one of the protected categoried (age, sex, religion, sexual orientation, national origin, pregnancy, marriage status, race etc)

@LyleGraversen Missouri follows the Employment-At-Will doctrine. This means that both the employer and employee can terminate the employment relationship at any time and for any reason, as long as there is no employment contract to the contrary, there is no discrimination under civil rights laws (based on race, color, age, national origin, religion, ancestry, sex, or physical/mental disability), no merit laws apply, or the state’s limited public policy exception does not apply. (Cut and pasted from the Missouri Dept. of Labor) I think that sums it up pretty well. I know that frequently an employer will build a file to show a pattern of behavior that is cited as the reason for the firing. This helps them in case they are sued for wrongful termination or discrimination. This is also why I was not surprised when the article referred to an instance of asking for old emails. They were most likely being gone over to be put into that type of file.

@Ehud@LyleGraversen I was just curious if some of this behavior was a ploy to drive out Peterson employees that the new regime didn't want but didn't have a major reason to fire. So they put them under a microscope until they either find a good reason or they decide they can't take any more. Then once they have the people that they want in place they lighten up. Just a theory, but it wouldn't make sense to do that if you could just fire them whenever they want without just cause.

This is a smart point. It might well have played out that way and it is a recipe for legal trouble. If true, the Chiefs used pretextual reasons to let them go (the real reason being connection with Peterson), but in court, the jury will see the pretext and their lawyers will argue it is a pretext for age discrimination. The Chiefs will not say it was a pretext for Peterson bias, so they will be stuck with whatever pretextual reason they came up with to hide the Peterson bias and the jury will be free to rule that the pretext was for age discrimination.

@LyleGraversen If they are employed "at will" employers can fire them for any reason short of discrimination legally. I know this from living in RTW states but almost all states allow employers to employ people "at will. I think Montana is the only state that requires just cause for terminating an employee after they've completed their probationary period. Meaning if the employer has you sign anything that says you're employed at will OR you work in a right to work state (if I recall you still have to sign something).They can fire you if they don't like the shape of your nose. Employed at will/Right to Work are more like fired at will and right to be fired for no good reason.

Yes, Hunt/Pioli/Donovan could have been upfront and fired everyone associated with the Peterson regime simply because they were associated with the Peterson regime. They would not want to do that for business purposes (some were needed, at least on a temporary basis) and public relations purposes. As others have pointed out, a firing becomes a legal issue only if it is in breach of a contract or if it was motivated by an illegal reason, most often some form of ulawful discrimination.

Additional thoughts: In the three age discrimination lawsuits against the Chiefs, the legal issue to be determined by the jury will be whether age was a contributing factor in the decision to fire. In theory, the Chiefs could successfully defend that cases by saying the sole reason for termination was the employee's prior association with Peterson (assuming a jury would believe that). I assume the Chiefs will not say that and, instead, there will be a battle in court over whatever reason they assert for the firings. From a distance and without knowing the facts, the Chiefs are probably more likely to lose than win in front of a jury because they likely were not very fair in the firings and there will be evidence that a large number of older employees were fired. There also is an allegation that some high level executive made comments about getting rid of people who were over 40, which standing alone would provide the jury with evidence to find discrimination. Only about 2% of lawsuits actually go to trial in Jackson County, Missouri. My guess is that the Chiefs will agree to large confidential settlements rather than risk the potential loss and the significant publicity that will result from any trial.

Rather than argue with those so willing to believe the worst of our organization and make folly of the airing of the dirty laundry by disgruntled employees in Babb's "brilliant piece" I will simply ask one question. If this is all true then why in the hell would a man of integrity and one of the most respected coaches in the NFL, Romeo Crennel, want to become the new head coach?

Because he is 64 years old, wants another shot at head coach, and this is one of 32 of the most sought after jobs in the world. Also, what does he care about the goings on in the office? He knows that once hired, Pioli has to live or die with him.

There were other teams requesting interviews with him. Why not wait till 2011 season officially ends and interview for a job with any of the other organizations that were interested in his services. He signed with the Chiefs surprisingly early, it made it clear this is where he wanted to be.

WAIT A SECOND! That can't be right... are you saying that the Chiefs Brass fired a young head coach and replaced him with a 64 year old man.... no way, that goes against eveyrthing this organization is built on! Stop spreading prop pioli lies you heretic!

@KC Oracle Age has nothing to do with it Dick Lebeau in Pittsburgh is still going strong at 75. And what does he care about the goings on in the office? Sounds like he better be on his toes because the "goings on" obviously sent Haley into a paranoid delirium. Pioli certainly doesn't have to "live" with him either - he fired Haley midseason after winning the division. Still waiting for a response that has some substance to it.

Everybody hates the new manager that rolls into town and starts out by firing people and demanding better performance from the rest -thanks for the news flash Babb! Any company that produced a 2-14 product preceded by a 4-12 and followed by a 4-12 product should have had just about everyone shown the door.

What do office employees have to do with the won/loss record? By the way, other than sending Tony G and a few other players down the road, what other players of significance did the Chiefs show the door?

@KC Oracle The success of a business is determined by the effectiveness of all of its parts. Service can't live without sales. Production depends on distribution and so on. How about Jared Allen or Jason Babin who have been dominating sack leaders. Rich Gannon, Joe Horn, Weigmann, Albert Lewis to name a few but we have been doing a better job of late. Pioli gets a gold star on my frig if he gets Bowe and Carr done in addition to every other quality player he has resigned.

The truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle. Turnover happens under new managment, and I've never heard of anyone being happy after being fired. Why do so many people have the same story, though? Parinoia and group think go hand in hand. It's possible that over the top secrecy policies led to some parinoia. There's no doubt Pioli takes secrecy to the level of ridiculous, and I'm sure he's a jerk to work for. Rooms bugged and phones tapped just seems a bit far fetched to me.

@Erich It does, but Belichick was caught filming practices. McD did it. Pioli is from the same cloth. It's about control, and egos big enough to think their entitled. Were rooms bugged? Hell if I know, but I bet the people leaving for lunch at different times weren't doing so strictly out of paranoia. The powers that be regulate and monitor internet activity frequently. Bottom line, it doesn't really matter how much of it is going on or is perceived, it's not a healthy work environment, and it will inevitably reflect poorly on this org that we love so much.

I think we need to give this story some time to develop, if there is any truth to it won't take long to come out. There's probably some truth on both sides lets wait and see where the middle ground is before we get the lynch mob together.

You have a great flare for dramatic comedy. I laughed through the 1st half of the article. For me the jury is still out on what is going on behind the scenes at Arrowhead Drive. I find the witnesses suspect and the tale a bit far fetched. The press always gets it right though so maybe we should gather the lynch mob now.

Pretty good counterpoint Lyle. I agree that with the secrecy instituted by Pioli, he has left the press with no choice but to speculate sometimes. The press has pretty much said they are unhappy with it and I think Babb's displeasure is somewhat shown in this article. Don't misunderstand my thoughts on this story. The fact that so many people can feel this way is disturbing and some questions do need to be asked. However, I do believe that this has been trumped up some by Babb and/or the KC Star. I have issues with certain parts of the story. For example, is this truly front page news? I read this article and I feel like it is missing parts that should have kept it off the presses until answers were gotten. Like whether Haley's phone was tapped. Like whether rooms at Arrowhead were bugged. Those are just a couple examples. Just keep in mind when you read this article that the writer writing it and the paper printing it want the buzz and the money that comes with even the illusion of this situation.

@Ehud A long time ago I had some experience with bugging, actually detecting it. Just how would you suggest the Star or anyone outside Arrowhead determine if bugging was happening? Glad you are so willing support the managements side. Guess $1.25 newspaper gets to say anything with no fear of legal reprisal from the honorable Clark?

@tm1946@Ehud There's no need to determine if bugging was being done - just say it was and it must be true.

@tm1946 A good start would be to schedule an interview at Arrowhead and then use a bug scanner on the room the interview is held in. Then, no matter what happens, I have a first hand, personal account relating to the potential bugging. If it detects then I can say so. If the staff starts freaking out, I can say so. Either way, I have a first hand account of the results. As far as supporting management goes, I'm willing to keep an open mind. Because whether you like or not, this story produces nothing except a case of he said/she said.

@Ehud Those are some good points. Also of note it starts out with this dramatic scene where Haley is flaking out a little bit. Is that factual Babb never really says where the reports of Haley's paranoia come from. Lot's of other incidents are put in context or coorborated by someone interviewed but the part about Haley is left mostly to the imagination. I'm curious why.

@kcfanintx@Ehud Exactly. Babb had to sell the story with his desperate description of Haley w/o any mention of where it came from. Brilliant journalism.

How many other media members around the league write stuff like this? People in front offices are more often than not proffesionals. Why would they smear utter crap like this if it werent true? It wont be long and we will be worse than the Davis ran Raiders. It sounds to me Pioli and Donavan are more concerned with messing with people in the office and playing manipulating mind games with them instead of pouring over film trying to find the next franchise QB, Offensive Coordinator, and hopefully a special teams coach.

@Danny W Because messing with people and playing manipulating mind games is how they will be able to keep their jobs for years to come. Wrong.

@Danny W Just because others haven't written an article like this before (and I don't know that they haven't) doesn't add something to it. Everything was done for the first time once. Just because you are professional does not secure you a job somewhere. You have to be doing a good job and be doing it in the way the boss asks you to. Because it isn't provably true or false with the information given. That fact that these stories are being relayed second hand and in generalities keeps the paper insulated from law suits. It sells papers. Weren't we worse than the Raiders at least part of the time under Peterson? What's your measure of better/worse than Raiders? The key phrase there is "sounds to me." You don't know it to be true and I don't either.

@Danny W If you're right we'll keep losing and Pioli will be fired. If you're wrong we'll continue to get better and win more games and nobody will give a rip how Pioli treated Carl's former employees. Time will tell.

@LyleGraversen@Danny W No one can argue that this team is as bad or worse than the 2007 and 2008 Chiefs - Period.

Other questions: 1. Did Pioli botch his first head coach hire? Yes. 2. Did Pioli botch his first draft? Yes. 3. Did Pioli tie his team's future to a quarterback who is not good enough to take the Chiefs deep in the playoffs? Yes.

@KC Oracle 1) Yes. 2) Yes. 3) Probably but, keep in mind that he was better than the alternatives and was the best available at the time. Cassel was certainly an upgrade. He at least allows to win games. He's also gone on record saying that he is looking for a QB every draft. This shows that he's not blind to he fact of what Cassel is.

Good points on Cassell. The problem is that we are now three years down the road without a top quarterback. I think the available approaches at this point are: (1) acquire a top flight experienced QB (I suppose the Manning option); (2) trade up to get a top flight guy; (3) make an inspired selection with the current pick; or (4) sign Orten and let him and Cassell battle for the job. If Manning is healthy, and we could get him, I would go with that optoin. I suppose trade up would be my second choice.

@KC Oracle All great and fair questions Oracle. I can't dispute any of those.

I think you ask the wrong questions. Are the Chiefs on the field better than they were 3 years ago? Yes. Is Pioli a good manager of people? No. Does it affect the team on the field? Probably not. Does Pioli waste his time on things that have nothing to do with winning on the field? Yes. Will Pioli ulitmately be a success in Kansas City? Probably not. [Success defined as making it to the Conference Championship game within his first 6 years.]