Glenn Dorsey, Tyson Jackson Broken Down

@LyleGraversen Not at all good chap. I thought your post was fine. I just think the whole debate is sort of silly because I think the answer is pretty obvious. These two are really good against the run and really bad against the pass. That is really the long and the short of it. That being said, I think they will improve a bit as the years go by and I think that as long as Justin Houston and Tamba Hali can get pressure on the QB, KC will be ok.

and I would want JC to have the ball in that situation. but overall I agree with your point.

@Gjrchief I think based on where they were drafted, they should do better than a combined 1 sack for the year. Maybe they are coached not to go after the quarterback and to stay home, but still once it's obvious that the opposing team is passing, our two golden LSU defensive lineman top 5 draft picks can't pressure, knock down, or sack the quarterback. Despite whatever run statistics they are putting up I think that's pathetic.

@ArrowFan I totally agree that we actually paid too much for these guys, but we have no control over that and the debate SHOULD be whether they are hurting or helping this defense. I am a firm believer they are helping MORE than they are hurting the defense. Just saying.

@MichaelShaw you realize studebaker and miler are both olb's and one a rookie untested and injured all year and the other can't make a tackle as much as I like the man

@kctenn44 On the roster it has Gabe Miller listed as just a LB. Yes I know Andy is listed as an OLB, but I believe he has the skill set to become a good ILB. Just my opinion of course.

@MichaelShaw DJ and Hali both said during the year that the DL was doing a great job which lets the LB's make the plays. That's good enough for me. Add Emmanuel Ocho to replace Belcher as the starter but keep him for depth.

@Erich If we could find a couple of DE to supplement what is already there. Is that to big a fish to fry? If you think the offense is so depleted, just wait til Cassel is healthy and thinking when the ball gets snapped. No build the DL and let the defense save the 2012 season.

Did you see how the numbers dropped after the top 5? Did you see how close these two actually were to the guys in front of them? This tells me elite 3-4 DEs like we all want are hard to come by. We could do more harm than good by blowing things up. I want an upgrade at DE. Don't get me wrong (or put words in my mouth). I want an upgrade over Belcher too. I just want a RT, QB, OC/OG, and RB more.

@Erich I agree with every bit of it. I include the need for a TE who can play in 16 games, done with Moeaki. And if we lose Bowe, a distinct possibility, or Carr, a lessor possiblity, we need WR and CB.

@Redblack564 You want Jackson to play some NT? How many games did you see offenses run to their right side, right over Jackson?

He only missed 3 tackles. Not bad for being run at all season. (not saying he should play NT)

@Erich He only missed 3 tackles??? 3 tackles all year, wow, should have been in the probowl. Roughly 30 + minutes a game and not involved in passing plays, one whole sack, and only missed 3 tackles all year. What a miss carriage of justice he is not a probowler.

I get the feeling you are putting words in my mouth.

@Erich i thought I read "He only missed 3 tackles" right under your name. If someone was using your names or mindmelting thoughts into you brain, sorry.

I didn't say anything about him deserving a probowl bid or even being great. Just replying to your comment that teams ran "right over" him all season.

@Erich 3 tackles seems very knowledgeable to me, you kept track? My rememberance is he tackling a runner down field 5 yards or the DB making the tackle on the left side. But I bow to your measurement. 3 missed tackles are Pro bowl material.

I didn't keep track.... Uhh... It was #7 in Paddy's post.... Do you read this stuff before you go on a rampage or just jump staight into a rant?

@Erich Sorry just though it was an orginal thought on your part.

@tm1946@Erich If she reads the post, why does she need original thought, especially when she is quoting the original author. Sounds to me like you are trying to pick a fight. Just saying.

Lol. HE... I chose the avatar because everyone like eye candy.. I'm a dude.. But thanks.

@jpopejoy but their passing grade isn't based on "did they get a sack or not". Its based on everything they're doing when they're in on passing downs. Any kind of pressure, a double-team, a hurry, a pass batted down, beating your man, those all result in very positive grades. Being stood up or moved away by a single blocker results in a bad grade. They had A LOT more of the latter than the former.

@Big Matt@jpopejoy Might toss Gregg into the discussion. He had a lot of backup in his game too.

@Big Matt interesting. i still them as guys that just occupy space and let LBs make the plays. Are they worth the $ we gave them at 3 and 5? absolutely not. But i think they are good for this defense. Also, having a competent NT will help the situation, best way to help DEs is pressure up the middle w/ the NT

@jpopejoy A good nose would definitely change things. I think Tin Man and Dorsey can be useful if used properly, but that, as top five picks, they were a terrible waste of resources.

@Big Matt ya, it's more of WHERE we picked them. There is no excuse for Jackson over Raji, however, EVERYONE thought Dorsey was gonna be like Sapp. So that's a case of everyone being wrong...which i can live with

@jpopejoy@Big Matt Wasn't Dorsey drafted to play T in th e 4-3. He got stuck in the 3-4, not his choice.

@tm1946@Big Matt i think so. also, Hali was drafted to play DE in a 4-3, but was just an ok player until the 3-4...so i guess we are 1-1 in that switch.

@Big Matt@jpopejoy Agreed on the NT (hopefully Gordon/Powe and/or draft choice) but they are both far from being a "bust" like Jamarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf or Brady Quinn or Archie Griffin to name 4 of the top 50 Biggest Bust on Bleacher Report - I didn't see TJax or Dorsey mentioned.

@Big Matt@jpopejoy Their passing grades are also impacted by the rotation we use limiting the number of passing plays they are in on. Not suggesting that they play more passing downs just making sure every possible stone has been turned in this very lively discussion.

also, our coach and D coordinator says that's the way they're told to play. . .RAC's such a lunatic.

@stephen... wait, hang on a minute here, I'm not disputing anything Crennel has said, and I certainly never called him a lunatic. A quote is one thing. A season full of actions is another. He subbed those guys out on anything that looked like it could be a pass. So do you think its safe to say he doesn't think much of their pass defense?

@Big Matt@Stephen if a complete DE in a 3-4 should play all 3 downs, then its hard to argue that either tinman or glen are not borderline/obvious busts. however, they ARE taken out on passing downs so no wonder their numbers are so low. but, again,obviously there is a reason RAC removes them in those situations. sounds like he could be asking them to focus on the run??? maybe, maybe not. I guess I'm just glad they play the run at a high level and I'm glad we didn't have to find out how they are on 3rd down....every 3rd down...all season. at least we have decent depth. we have a great defense. these 2 have shown that they are a vital component of that D and I'll take that.

@stephen... @Stephen Great comment. Can't disagree. One thing though: their passing grades aren't low simply because they were subbed out a lot on those downs. You have to actually do something well to gain a point, and do something poorly to get a point subtracted. Their reduced downs means they actually had less of a chance to lose points there and hurt their score. Had they played more against the pass, their overall rankings would've been far worse. Dorsey would've been in the 20s probably.