The Chiefs Arrested Development

by Chiefs

 

Development.

A key concept in the K.C. Chiefs organization, especially since Scott Pioli and Todd Haley took over the team in 2009. The question is: where are the Chiefs at with the development of the organization and specifically, positional player development?

I normally put a positive spin on what’s going on with the Chiefs but, their less-than-stellar start to the season begs the question: what is meant by development? As I looked into it, I haven’t really liked what I found.

In 2009, Coach Todd Haley came out of the chutes all gang busters and trimmed hundreds of pounds from the Chiefs bellies but, since they don’t hand out trophies for losing weight in the NFL I’m sure that’s not all they intend to achieve when they speak of “development” in terms of the team.

Coach Haley has often said he expects his drafted players to come in and contribute right away and that they don’t have the luxury of waiting for years for them come along. This can give many young players a chance to learn on the fly as the team did with Eric Berry last season and in his case it has paid big dividends. However, not every new player is an Eric Berry and the standard approach to bringing players along would probably look more like the Chiefs approach with John Asamoah than Eric Berry. Asamoah got a year to get his feet wet and it also gave the Chiefs a chance to see what he could do before they jettisoned veteran Brain Waters and entrusted a guard position to him.

Most teams would be happy with this kind of timetable for “developing” players: one year learning and then taking over a starting position. Timetables aside this still doesn’t answer what is meant by “development.”

The Chiefs’ offseason… plus the first five games… raises more questions about the team’s development “program” than it does answer them.

Any local sports fan who has followed the Royals can tell you they’re not interested in a “developmental” program that essentially breeds players to go and succeed in another market. If ownership’s attitude is one that routinely takes the financial self-survival route then the Chiefs could end up becoming the NFL Royals who have to ship players like Tamba Hali and Eric Berry out, just to maintain fiscal survival.

We wouldn’t do that you say? Have you forgotten about Jared Allen and Tony G? Jared Allen, the premiere defensive end in the NFL and Tony Gonzales, the best tight end in the history of the game were both sent packing. You think we didn’t do that for financial reasons? Well, do you really believe we got “developmentally” better as a result of those trades?

I’m not saying that those players were moved for financial reasons alone but, if the K.C.Chiefs are going to develop top tier players and then send them away, is the organization ever going to be able to reach its developmental potential? That’s the point. Are we going to keep players and utilize them throughout their developmental potential?

I know we received good solid players in  return  through the draft but, this is not about that, this is about the development policy of the Chiefs current  organization heads. The question is, are they going to continue an old standard… or is there really a new one. After all, the Hunts still run the Chiefs.

Re-signing Derrick Johnson, Jamaal Charles and Tamba Hali in the past year are positive signs that the Chiefs intend to keep the value that those players hold, in house. But, that doesn’t guarantee that they won’t be trading them at some point. Scott Pioli and the New England Patriots have had no qualms about moving veterans out. The difference there was that they always felt it benefited them the most and have always made max potential trades.

Beyond the decisions that management makes about whether or not to be a “developmental” organization like the Royals or a team that develops their own players to win championships like New England, we need to see the signs that the team is building, advancing and maturing the players on their roster as well as the depth on the roster.

Developing Depth
Depth has been a key issue during the first 2 out of 5 quarters of this season… if you count the preseason as a quarter too. Depth can be developed in different ways. The Chiefs had no depth at wide receiver last year. While we have yet to see Jon Baldwin flash his skills it looks like the Chiefs have more talent their than they did last season. However, that kind of depth can be deceiving because the kind of depth the Chiefs are in need of is the kind that steps up the moment the starter goes down. So, it would be more accurate to say the Chiefs had no talent, beside Bowe, at wide receiver last year which was first and foremost, not an issue of depth. You have to have solid core players before you can address depth.

Core Talent Level
The Chiefs appear to have solid talent level at many positions. By definition: the most talented players are the Chiefs core players. Instead of listing those positions, let’s take a look at areas of need. For instance, the Chiefs current free safety is Kendrick Lewis but, most would recognize he’s not at the talent level of Eric Berry. Also, many people were hoping the Chiefs would draft a FS or sign one in Free Agency. You can call Lewis a developing player but, he happens to also be a starter right now because your core talent level at that position is low. In other words, Kendrick Lewis should probably be a developing back-up player who could hope to step in some day. Instead the Chiefs’ GM Scott Pioli has chosen to play it risky and hope Lewis can fill in admirably… until what? Until he finds another low round choice who CAN play at a high level?

The Chiefs allowed this same scenario to play out at the corner back position opposite Brandon Flowers and it has worked out well. Brandon Carr has turned into a solid core player… and it looks like the Chiefs have long-term plans for him and we’ll know that better when, and  if, they offer him a deal sometime in the next year.

So, Brandon Carr is a player the Chiefs have developed and should now be considered a core player. We should also recognize they didn’t develop him behind a solid starter and promote him up the ranks. He was pretty much thrown to the wolves and survived then flourished. I’m not sure Carr will ever be a Pro Bowl level performer but, he’s proven he’s strong enough to take over the #1 spot when Flowers goes down.

There are not a lot of stories like Brandon Carr’s on our roster. Glenn Dorsey would not qualify. Neither would Tyson Jackson. When players are drafted high in the first round they are expected to step in and perform at a high level right away. If it takes longer than a couple of years then their time on the roster is likely coming to an end. Alex Magee and Ryan Sims are examples.

A questionable signing is S Sabby Piscitelli. It’s hard to see his signing another way. With other veteran level safeties available, Piscitelli has consistently rated among the lowest performers at his position league-wide. And that’s not new for him. Is it that Pioli is wanting to take a player who is physically imposing (6-3, 224) and see if Haley can develop him or is it that the GM wants to play it cheap? Or is there another element at play? In any event, Piscitelli on the roster as a developmental player is hard to justify as a GM… and harder yet to understand as a fan. After completely restaffing the scouting department a year and a half ago it’s hard to believe that Sabby is the best they can do. There certainly must be UDFAs out there with better upside than Sabby, who would have better financial implications. You can see why the Piscitelli signing is so perplexing.

In some ways it’s like saying… we’re not interested in player development.

The Andy Studebaker situation is another one that leaves me head scratching. Mike Vrabel had the clout to hold the job for the past two years, I get that. But, Studebaker not stepping up and attacking his opportunity the way so many expected him to is sad. Justin Houston has been a nice surprise but, the topic of discussion here is development and developing players. Andy was brought along with the idea of not only starting and being a solid starter but, excelling and passing his experience along to the newcomer Justin Houston. Has Justin looked so good you couldn’t keep him off the field? I’d say no. It has more to do with Studebaker not performing at a high level.

So, where does the development process break down at the OLB position? I have to place the responsibility on the shoulders of Scott Pioli and Todd Haley for keeping Studebaker in the developing role at that position when it should have been evident to them that he wasn’t going to be able to step up and be the man. Otherwise, why have a guy in that role for the past two years? Just to fill a spot on the roster with a cheap contract? So, they go out and draft an OLB (Houston) in the 3rd round, hoping he is a 1st round talent and if he turns out to be that we’re supposed to trust that as a solid piece of talent evaluation while keeping Studebaker as the OLB back-up for the past two years was not solid talent evaluation? Is player development just a crap shoot?

Loyalty and Development
Is there a place for loyalty in the development process? If the Chiefs draft the best player available and he happens to be an OLB when they already believe they have their next starting OLB on the roster, where does loyalty come in? Like all other budget cuts across this country, loyalty has come to only exist when it is financially convenient. So, long-time Chiefs players like Tony Gonzales and Brian Waters can now be seen in other uniforms playing vital roles for other teams because it’s financially convenient to do so and we can do it in the name of development.

Models and Development
One way to determine if an organization has progressed is to look at whether or not they are doing what they said they would do. If a team says we’re going to be a “smash mouth” team then you have to see what moves they’ve made to become that kind of team.

The Chiefs have stated many times before that they want to get:

Bigger, stronger, faster and tougher.

Are those words just words that all GMs say to placate the masses? In the case of Scott Pioli and Todd Haley I’d say no. Why? Because they have talked about that over and over again and have gone as far as to say they have said the same to each other on multiple occasions.

So, are the Chiefs… bigger, stronger, faster and tougher… than they were two and a half years ago? Maybe but, my overall impression is… not very much.

One model we have all expected Scott Pioli to establish is the Patriot way. He brought Matt Cassel and Mike Vrabel with him to help establish this model. Have we developed into a team that reminds you at all of the Patriots? Once again, my overall impression is… not very much.

The point is… I can’t finger many examples that are very good that will show… the Chiefs have been developing. When I heard that Pioli and Haley were wanting to dump Jamaal Charles before Larry Johnson was released… I was not impressed with their talent evaluation.

Is there a connection between talent evaluation and development? There better be. If you develop a player but, can’t tell that he is good… and then you end up letting him go… and he does great elsewhere… that’s a problem.

Now, I know some will take issue with me when I say I can’t finger many examples, that are very good, that will show the Chiefs have been developing. I’m not saying the Chiefs haven’t made some good top round draft choices. However, a team can’t live on top round draft choices alone because there are never enough of those guys to go around. Thus, a team has to find other players they believe in and… develop them!

The great solution to all of this is winning. Winning shows progress. Winning shows development… the development we’re looking for. Therein lies the problem. We haven’t seen a lot of winning going on, this season.

Hopefully, our two-game winning streak turns into three and then four and we will clearly be able to see the development in player personnel we’ve all been waiting for.

If not, there may be some developments of another kind… that don’t have to do with player personnel… that may be coming down the pike.

What is most perplexing to me… and the reason for this post… is that I’m unable to pinpoint what Scott Pioli and Todd Haley’s development program is… or the evidence of such a program. The reason I couldn’t use a grading system to write this post is that it’s hard to grade something when you don’t know what the standards are.

I hear Pioli and Haley saying they want to develop players. I just don’t know who, or what, they’re talking about. After 2 1/2 years, we should know who they’re talking about. Since Brandon Carr was a Carl Peterson choice, it’s very difficult to come up with the name of even one front line contributor that the Chiefs have developed in their reign. Aside from Asamoah, if you’re listing Jovan Belcher and Kendrick Lewis on your resume as “the” players you helped to develop… then you may have a problem finding another job as a GM… but, perhaps it could help you get a job as a fry cook on Venus.

It would appear that the Chiefs current development approach is like: throw it up against a wall and see if it sticks… and then call it development if it does. IOW… bring the player in for a short period and… hope for the best. I can find many more examples of this type of approach: Chris Chambers, Matt Gutierrez, Andy Alleman, Ikechuku Ndukwe, Bobby Wade, Sean Ryan, Dion Gales, Derek Lokey, David Herron, Bobby Sippio, Mike Brown and Kevin Curtis. Will Anthony Toribio be joining this list soon? The handling of these players raises questions about the length of the commitment the Chiefs are making to their “developmental” players. And it raises questions about their ability to evaluate them before they arrive as being players who have enough  upside to develop any further than they already have before they got here. And it raises questions about whether or not the Chiefs have the tools in place to actually develop players once they get here.

Can you tell me how many of the players who were on the Chiefs 2009 reserved list and practice squad combined… are now on the active roster? One. Jackie Battle. Also, can you name one current second team player who you’d be happy to take over for the starter if the starter went down? I can’t think of even one. If you could come up with better answers for these two questions then you could say the Chiefs were good at developing players.

Then there are players like Quinten Lawrence or Rudy Niswanger. How do players like these stay on the roster for as long as they do? How long should it take for a coaching staff to evaluate whether or not a player will ever help the team?

Most people don’t realize the negative impact of keeping a player for too long, who can’t ever help the team. That player is burning a roster spot that can be given to another player who CAN help. The time that player is on the roster can never be recovered. The wasted wages are also unrecoverable and so, the impact is not only seen on the field but, throughout the whole organizational framework. The team goes through regression instead of making progress. But, it’s worse than that because the team is then moving in a negative direction.

This is the hole I see the Chiefs creating now. Building a team is so much more than making good draft choices. The Chiefs must get better in the “development” department or the team will perpetuate suffering, instead of flourishing.

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You kind of jump around and contradict yourself in this post, Ladner. To the point that it seems no matter what example is given you are going to take a negative stance. Lewis shouldn't be starting because he is a low pick and that's just a money thing. Or at least that's how it seems "until what? Until he finds another low round choice who CAN play at a high level?" Finding players to start all through the draft is huge. Hali, Bowe and DJ don't count because they ARE high draft picks. They are expected to perform. Well, not developing first round picks would be the worst possible scenario in my opinion.. SEE: Oakland Raiders. Hali, Bowe and DJ don't count again because they weren't drafted by the current regime... Then you turn right around and use FAs like Chambers, who wasn't drafted by them either, against them. It's not like KC is the only team that brings in FA and gives them the boot shortly after they don't pan out. My point is, I don't think the Chiefs have done well developing the bottom of the roster. If you had used better examples, and organized your argument better, then I would probably agree with you.... Unfortunately, I couldn't disagree with this post more.

I think a lot of this article revolves around just how bad the 2009 draft was. Only 3 players are still on the 53 man roster and none of them are true game changers(Succup doesn't count because he has to be put in the position to score by his team.) it happened you can't blame one bad draft on the collapse of the Chiefs. This article also seems to jump around a lot mentioning trades that were made when P&H weren't in charge and even players that weren't drafted by them. Yeah you can ask why all these players are still around and why haven't we gotten better players, well there are really only three ways to get impact players 1. draft 2. give another team your draft picks for a player. 3. Pay more than everybody else on the UFA. Two and three we tried in the Vermeil era and we saw the final result one year into the Herm era. Herm had one decent draft class 2008(it should be for the price we paid). Other than that the only draft choices still around are the number ones Hali and Bowe besides both having solid years as rookies neither started really showing up until Haley took over. I don't think Shabby or Studebaker were meant to be a starters they do there damage on Special teams and have the ability to play in certain packages,(like Gary Stills) but when have crappy drafts classes, and free agents that don't work out for almost a decade you can't just fix it in 2 1/2 years season ending injuries also don't help. You work with what you have, or spend money and at the moment I don't think there is any players available worth the money and I would rather they spent draft picks on young players that want to win not the free agents looking for a pay day. Finally, as of 10/19/11 neither Niswanger or Lawrence are on the 53 man roster and they staid that long because you once again have a GM that can't draft for a decade. I also don't think anybody thinks reserve list and practice squad when you think developing players?

The Chiefs didn't develop Ryan Lilja, the Colts did. The Chiefs didn't develop Casey Wiegmann, the Jets did. The Chiefs didn't develop Matt Cassel, the Pats did. The Cheifs didn't develop Thomas Jones, the Cards did. The Chiefs haven't developed Barry Richardson. He's not very good. The Chiefs didn't develop Leonard Pope or Steve Breaston, somebody else did. The Chiefs didn't develop LaRon McClain, the Ravens did. The Chiefs didn't develop Jon McGraw, the Jets did. Yes, Gilberry and Carr could be classed as developed by the Chiefs but, both were brought in by Carl Peterson. So... outside of the Chiefs top round picks (which are players we all expect to develop)... WHO has this leadership (Pioli and Haley) brought in and developed in the past 2 1/2 years. The answer is... no one. Perhaps I didn't state this clearly enough in my post. No one.

@laddiemorse What is it about some GMs and head coaches that seem to get it when it comes to recognizing talent, and others just whiff. Hank Stram, with a limited budget and not a big scouting dept. went out and found Hall of Famers year after year. Bill Walsh must have had a crystal ball! Dick Vermiel built a great offense from players that other teams deemed expendable. If he had only modest success with his defense, the Chiefs would have been playing for multiple Super Bowls. I think that as the year progresses, we will have a really good idea where the team is headed as to it's development of the entire roster. If it shows that the Chiefs have come together and completely bought into the system and are playing hard, then at least they have some direction. If not, well, could be rough sledding for Pioli Haley. Oh, and the Chiefs Nation will be in for another letdown.

Seems like this year I've abandoned my usual position of sticking up for Pioli and Haley because I really do think that they both dropped the ball some this year. HOWEVER, I'm going to go back to my old ways in this case because I think you're being a little unfair. Have the Chiefs done a good enough job of developing bottom of the roster guys and turning them into quality depth or starters? No. Is there any excuse for Sabby being on the roster? No. That having been said I think you're ignoring a lot of key development that has happened and dismissing it because of who those players are. I would argue that in addition to the guys that you mentioned players like Bowe, Charles, Albert, Dorsey, Gilberry, DJ, Hali, and even Cassel have seen major development since Pioli and Haley got here. I understand the argument will be that most of those guys are first rounders so they didn't have to develop them that much. The problem is that none of those guys were consistently good prior to this administration coming in. Honestly, if you took over a HORRIBLE team what would you look to develop first, the bottom of the roster guys or the first round picks with elite talent that aren't living up to it? Clearly you would want to get those star players going so you have something to build around. Yes, they should be developing both. I agree with that and I already stated they haven't done enough with the bottom of the roster. I just don't think you can ignore the fact that they took out of shape, under performing players and turned them into (in some cases) consistent pro bowl caliber players. They deserve some credit for that just like they deserve some flack for the bottom of the roster guys.

@LyleGraversen right on! I also think what's funny is this article referenced the patriots as how to do it right. There list of players brought in and cut early is twice as long as ours, when will ocho cinco join that list? How about Matt Cassel, drafted low, outperformed his draft slot, and was immediately traded. If what is discribe in this article is player development, I think the Patriots may be worst in the league at it... and yet they consistantly compete for titles, interesting. Didn't Gonzalez ask to be traded to a contender? Wasn't Allen one drunken night from a huge suspension, and I think we got a good deal for him anyway. Sometimes player development isn't the best way to build a team. How is Gilberry not on the list of developing players!

I think you're kind of missing the point... and mis-representing the Patriots... because I guarantee you if they have a starter go down... they do have someone very capable and ready to step right in. Now, after 2 1/2 years... do the Chiefs have even one player ready to do that? Come on... not even one? @Gjrchief @LyleGraversen

IOW... if you have no depth... you have (nearly) no development (of the team). Go ahead and argue that the Chiefs may have 6 Pro Bowlers... but, you can't win big with only a few top performing players. Everyone's level of play must rise to meet a high standard. Everyone's. @Gjrchief @LyleGraversen

@laddiemorse @LyleGraversen I think people are just so accoustomed to the patriots being the patriots that they speak of them without actually getting the facts. You say I misrepresent them... have you watched their defense lately? They don't even have quality starters let alone a single body who could and would step up if one went down... hell, if they did they would start him, because their defense needs brady to throw for 500 yrds to be competitive. Devin McCourty played well last year, sucks this year. He has no help on the other side, you want me to believe the 3rd best corner on the team is ready to step up, if he was, they wouldn't be playing shit opposite mcCourty. How about developing quality players and cutting them... Brandon Merriweather anyone!? Pro bowl last year, cut this year, and their safety play has been horrible this year.

@laddiemorse@Gjrchief@LyleGraversen Yeah, many pro bowlers with little success is the Raiders of the past decade or so. Hue's got them playing like a team now. Which is where I give Haley high marks. He may suck at evaluation, but he does seem to get his players to play as a team.

As I mentioned in the post... the Chiefs have good core level players. This post is not about them. This is about the positional players and depth players that the Chiefs have NOT developed. Many would argue that it's not as hard to turn 1st, 2nd and 3rd round talent into core starters. That's my point too... and the Chiefs haven't done much to nurture others into starting roles who aren't the cream of the crop. Gilberry has developed since P&H have been here but, he first came here in 2008... before P&H arrived. That's my point too. How many players who aren't top round draft picks have P&H developed? The point is... not many... and THAT'S the hole in the current organizational structure.

@laddiemorse Fair enough, that is a valid complaint. I just don't think you can have a discussion about how the Chiefs develop players without talking about how they have developed their best players. I think the real problem is the 2009 draft class. It stunk and there aren't any players left that the team can develop. If you look at the 2010 and 2011 classes there are some players that still have the potential to develop. Arenas, Asamoah, Lewis, Sheffield, and Greenwood (UFA) from 2010 and then guys like Hudson, Bailey, Brown, Stanzi, and Powe from 2011. If we don't get at least a half dozen quality players eventually out of those 10 guys then you will be 100% correct.

@LyleGraversen @laddiemorse exactly correct. Pioli had a poor 2009 draft. It happens. Get over it, even the best GMs have bad drafts. Im sure for many of them the 1st was there worst. I thought this point was about more than the 2009 draft. You were talking development. That takes time! You don't want to talk about Gilberry cause he came in 2008!! He only has had 3 years to develop! That to me seems the logical mimimum. 1 year to learn the system, growing pains and all, 1 year to start contributing here and there, then 1 year to start to shine. I will openly admit 2009 draft sucked. No one there left to develop. I think we have some 2010s who will develop quite nicely. Look at kendrick, look at cameron sheffield, tony moeaki, jon asamoah. That draft is filled with people who are still developing at a good pace. Its too soon for this article. Its snap judgements like this that cause teams to cut guys, who aren't "developing fast enough." Im sure the ravens said that about Priest Holmes, the Rams thought it about Trent Green. We thought it about ryan lilja in his prime. You have got to give coaches time to coach, players time to develop. Post this article again next year and we will talk about the 2010 draft class and see how there development has come along.

Preist Holmes was with the ravens for 4 years. The Rams had Kurt Pro Bowl Future HOFer Warner so, what did they need with Green? But, yes, I will revisit the subject of development again in a year. However, I don't think there's a bad time to address this topic. Why would there be? My question is... is there really a development program in place? My point is... the evidence is thin.@Gjrchief @LyleGraversen

@laddiemorse @LyleGraversen You proved my point about Priest.. Development takes time! You cant judge P&H on their development of players by only judging people they brought in over 2 and a half years, that is not enough time to have a player develop. The ravens cut Priest after 4 years! He hadnt developed fast enough for people like you. If the ravens had just been patient they would have had one hell of a player. Trent Green... didnt you say the point of development was having a back up who can step up if the starter went down? Trent Green backing up Kurt Warner sounds like a good development plan, cutting him sounds like the opposite. I do believe there is a bad time to evaluate development, and that is by doing it too early, which is what you're doing. Give the Priests time to develop before you rate the player development a failure and start to jettison players. I can honestly only think of three players who got worse in his time under this administration, that is Mike Vrabel, Thomas Jones and Barry Richardson. Vrabel and Jones have nothing to do with Haley, that is all age related. B-Rich could be on them, but he was a low draft pick who is now starting, hard to call his development a failure, he has already exceeded expectations, he just was never meant to be a starter. I would argue that every other player has developed and played BETTER under them, some not much more, but I have seen improvement.

Have to agree with you, Laddie. Player evaluation has been a glaring weakness of both Haley and Pioli, and there are all too many examples of this. It's hard to see any method to their madness (and having Sabby, Lawrence and others on the roster is clearly madness).

Erich 123 pts

You kind of jump around and contradict yourself in this post, Ladner. To the point that it seems no matter what example is given you are going to take a negative stance.

Lewis shouldn't be starting because he is a low pick and that's just a money thing. Or at least that's how it seems "until what? Until he finds another low round choice who CAN play at a high level?" Finding players to start all through the draft is huge.

Hali, Bowe and DJ don't count because they ARE high draft picks. They are expected to perform. Well, not developing first round picks would be the worst possible scenario in my opinion.. SEE: Oakland Raiders.

Hali, Bowe and DJ don't count again because they weren't drafted by the current regime... Then you turn right around and use FAs like Chambers, who wasn't drafted by them either, against them. It's not like KC is the only team that brings in FA and gives them the boot shortly after they don't pan out.

My point is, I don't think the Chiefs have done well developing the bottom of the roster. If you had used better examples, and organized your argument better, then I would probably agree with you.... Unfortunately, I couldn't disagree with this post more.

awastevenson 21 pts

I think a lot of this article revolves around just how bad the 2009 draft was. Only 3 players are still on the 53 man roster and none of them are true game changers(Succup doesn't count because he has to be put in the position to score by his team.) it happened you can't blame one bad draft on the collapse of the Chiefs. This article also seems to jump around a lot mentioning trades that were made when P&H weren't in charge and even players that weren't drafted by them.

Yeah you can ask why all these players are still around and why haven't we gotten better players, well there are really only three ways to get impact players 1. draft 2. give another team your draft picks for a player. 3. Pay more than everybody else on the UFA. Two and three we tried in the Vermeil era and we saw the final result one year into the Herm era. Herm had one decent draft class 2008(it should be for the price we paid). Other than that the only draft choices still around are the number ones Hali and Bowe besides both having solid years as rookies neither started really showing up until Haley took over.

I don't think Shabby or Studebaker were meant to be a starters they do there damage on Special teams and have the ability to play in certain packages,(like Gary Stills) but when have crappy drafts classes, and free agents that don't work out for almost a decade you can't just fix it in 2 1/2 years season ending injuries also don't help. You work with what you have, or spend money and at the moment I don't think there is any players available worth the money and I would rather they spent draft picks on young players that want to win not the free agents looking for a pay day.

Finally, as of 10/19/11 neither Niswanger or Lawrence are on the 53 man roster and they staid that long because you once again have a GM that can't draft for a decade. I also don't think anybody thinks reserve list and practice squad when you think developing players?

laddiemorse 205 pts

The Chiefs didn't develop Ryan Lilja, the Colts did.

The Chiefs didn't develop Casey Wiegmann, the Jets did.

The Chiefs didn't develop Matt Cassel, the Pats did.

The Cheifs didn't develop Thomas Jones, the Cards did.

The Chiefs haven't developed Barry Richardson. He's not very good.

The Chiefs didn't develop Leonard Pope or Steve Breaston, somebody else did.

The Chiefs didn't develop LaRon McClain, the Ravens did.

The Chiefs didn't develop Jon McGraw, the Jets did.

Yes, Gilberry and Carr could be classed as developed by the Chiefs but, both were brought in by Carl Peterson.

So... outside of the Chiefs top round picks (which are players we all expect to develop)... WHO has this leadership (Pioli and Haley) brought in and developed in the past 2 1/2 years. The answer is... no one.

Perhaps I didn't state this clearly enough in my post.

No one.

RICK TORREY 52 pts

laddiemorse What is it about some GMs and head coaches that seem to get it when it comes to recognizing talent, and others just whiff. Hank Stram, with a limited budget and not a big scouting dept. went out and found Hall of Famers year after year. Bill Walsh must have had a crystal ball! Dick Vermiel built a great offense from players that other teams deemed expendable. If he had only modest success with his defense, the Chiefs would have been playing for multiple Super Bowls. I think that as the year progresses, we will have a really good idea where the team is headed as to it's development of the entire roster. If it shows that the Chiefs have come together and completely bought into the system and are playing hard, then at least they have some direction. If not, well, could be rough sledding for Pioli

Haley. Oh, and the Chiefs Nation will be in for another letdown.

LyleGraversen 313 pts

Seems like this year I've abandoned my usual position of sticking up for Pioli and Haley because I really do think that they both dropped the ball some this year. HOWEVER, I'm going to go back to my old ways in this case because I think you're being a little unfair.

Have the Chiefs done a good enough job of developing bottom of the roster guys and turning them into quality depth or starters? No. Is there any excuse for Sabby being on the roster? No.

That having been said I think you're ignoring a lot of key development that has happened and dismissing it because of who those players are. I would argue that in addition to the guys that you mentioned players like Bowe, Charles, Albert, Dorsey, Gilberry, DJ, Hali, and even Cassel have seen major development since Pioli and Haley got here.

I understand the argument will be that most of those guys are first rounders so they didn't have to develop them that much. The problem is that none of those guys were consistently good prior to this administration coming in. Honestly, if you took over a HORRIBLE team what would you look to develop first, the bottom of the roster guys or the first round picks with elite talent that aren't living up to it? Clearly you would want to get those star players going so you have something to build around.

Yes, they should be developing both. I agree with that and I already stated they haven't done enough with the bottom of the roster. I just don't think you can ignore the fact that they took out of shape, under performing players and turned them into (in some cases) consistent pro bowl caliber players. They deserve some credit for that just like they deserve some flack for the bottom of the roster guys.

Gjrchief 138 pts

LyleGraversen right on! I also think what's funny is this article referenced the patriots as how to do it right. There list of players brought in and cut early is twice as long as ours, when will ocho cinco join that list? How about Matt Cassel, drafted low, outperformed his draft slot, and was immediately traded. If what is discribe in this article is player development, I think the Patriots may be worst in the league at it... and yet they consistantly compete for titles, interesting. Didn't Gonzalez ask to be traded to a contender? Wasn't Allen one drunken night from a huge suspension, and I think we got a good deal for him anyway. Sometimes player development isn't the best way to build a team. How is Gilberry not on the list of developing players!

laddiemorse 205 pts

I think you're kind of missing the point... and mis-representing the Patriots... because I guarantee you if they have a starter go down... they do have someone very capable and ready to step right in. Now, after 2 1/2 years... do the Chiefs have even one player ready to do that? Come on... not even one? Gjrchief LyleGraversen

laddiemorse 205 pts

IOW... if you have no depth... you have (nearly) no development (of the team). Go ahead and argue that the Chiefs may have 6 Pro Bowlers... but, you can't win big with only a few top performing players. Everyone's level of play must rise to meet a high standard. Everyone's. Gjrchief LyleGraversen

Gjrchief 138 pts

laddiemorse LyleGraversen I think people are just so accoustomed to the patriots being the patriots that they speak of them without actually getting the facts. You say I misrepresent them... have you watched their defense lately? They don't even have quality starters let alone a single body who could and would step up if one went down... hell, if they did they would start him, because their defense needs brady to throw for 500 yrds to be competitive. Devin McCourty played well last year, sucks this year. He has no help on the other side, you want me to believe the 3rd best corner on the team is ready to step up, if he was, they wouldn't be playing shit opposite mcCourty. How about developing quality players and cutting them... Brandon Merriweather anyone!? Pro bowl last year, cut this year, and their safety play has been horrible this year.

sidibeke 259 pts

laddiemorseGjrchiefLyleGraversen Yeah, many pro bowlers with little success is the Raiders of the past decade or so. Hue's got them playing like a team now.

Which is where I give Haley high marks. He may suck at evaluation, but he does seem to get his players to play as a team.

laddiemorse 205 pts

As I mentioned in the post... the Chiefs have good core level players. This post is not about them. This is about the positional players and depth players that the Chiefs have NOT developed. Many would argue that it's not as hard to turn 1st, 2nd and 3rd round talent into core starters. That's my point too... and the Chiefs haven't done much to nurture others into starting roles who aren't the cream of the crop. Gilberry has developed since P&H have been here but, he first came here in 2008... before P&H arrived. That's my point too. How many players who aren't top round draft picks have P&H developed? The point is... not many... and THAT'S the hole in the current organizational structure.

LyleGraversen 313 pts

laddiemorse Fair enough, that is a valid complaint. I just don't think you can have a discussion about how the Chiefs develop players without talking about how they have developed their best players. I think the real problem is the 2009 draft class. It stunk and there aren't any players left that the team can develop. If you look at the 2010 and 2011 classes there are some players that still have the potential to develop. Arenas, Asamoah, Lewis, Sheffield, and Greenwood (UFA) from 2010 and then guys like Hudson, Bailey, Brown, Stanzi, and Powe from 2011. If we don't get at least a half dozen quality players eventually out of those 10 guys then you will be 100% correct.

Gjrchief 138 pts

LyleGraversen laddiemorse exactly correct. Pioli had a poor 2009 draft. It happens. Get over it, even the best GMs have bad drafts. Im sure for many of them the 1st was there worst. I thought this point was about more than the 2009 draft. You were talking development. That takes time! You don't want to talk about Gilberry cause he came in 2008!! He only has had 3 years to develop! That to me seems the logical mimimum. 1 year to learn the system, growing pains and all, 1 year to start contributing here and there, then 1 year to start to shine. I will openly admit 2009 draft sucked. No one there left to develop. I think we have some 2010s who will develop quite nicely. Look at kendrick, look at cameron sheffield, tony moeaki, jon asamoah. That draft is filled with people who are still developing at a good pace. Its too soon for this article. Its snap judgements like this that cause teams to cut guys, who aren't "developing fast enough." Im sure the ravens said that about Priest Holmes, the Rams thought it about Trent Green. We thought it about ryan lilja in his prime. You have got to give coaches time to coach, players time to develop. Post this article again next year and we will talk about the 2010 draft class and see how there development has come along.

laddiemorse 205 pts

Preist Holmes was with the ravens for 4 years. The Rams had Kurt Pro Bowl Future HOFer Warner so, what did they need with Green? But, yes, I will revisit the subject of development again in a year. However, I don't think there's a bad time to address this topic. Why would there be? My question is... is there really a development program in place? My point is... the evidence is thin.Gjrchief LyleGraversen

Gjrchief 138 pts

laddiemorse LyleGraversen You proved my point about Priest.. Development takes time! You cant judge P&H on their development of players by only judging people they brought in over 2 and a half years, that is not enough time to have a player develop. The ravens cut Priest after 4 years! He hadnt developed fast enough for people like you. If the ravens had just been patient they would have had one hell of a player. Trent Green... didnt you say the point of development was having a back up who can step up if the starter went down? Trent Green backing up Kurt Warner sounds like a good development plan, cutting him sounds like the opposite. I do believe there is a bad time to evaluate development, and that is by doing it too early, which is what you're doing. Give the Priests time to develop before you rate the player development a failure and start to jettison players. I can honestly only think of three players who got worse in his time under this administration, that is Mike Vrabel, Thomas Jones and Barry Richardson. Vrabel and Jones have nothing to do with Haley, that is all age related. B-Rich could be on them, but he was a low draft pick who is now starting, hard to call his development a failure, he has already exceeded expectations, he just was never meant to be a starter. I would argue that every other player has developed and played BETTER under them, some not much more, but I have seen improvement.

sidibeke 259 pts

Have to agree with you, Laddie. Player evaluation has been a glaring weakness of both Haley and Pioli, and there are all too many examples of this. It's hard to see any method to their madness (and having Sabby, Lawrence and others on the roster is clearly madness).