Is There Such A Thing As A 3-4 Cornerback?
First off, I would like to apologize for this posting. It will not provide you with any information. There are no answers here, just questions. I would like to call upon our Addicts who have either played organized football or coached it to discuss the following:
Before I ask the questions, I would like to lay this premise: Over the last few years we have essentially played a Cover 2 defense. As we all know, some cornerbacks in the league are considered to be Cover 2 corners. There is no dispute that the past regime has drafted cornerbacks whose primary talents were geared towards the Cover 2 Defense. Brandon Flowers, Brandon Carr, and Maurice Leggett did pretty well playing the Cover 2 in their rookies season and were drafted for such a scheme. Jarrad Page and Bernard Pollard have grown up in the Cover 2.
But, can their talents translate to a 3-4 defense? Does it matter? Will they struggle? Is that why Donald Washington (CB) was drafted? Is there such a thing as a 3-4 Corner? If a 3-4 Defense changes the defensive linemen’s and linebackers’ responsibilities, how does it change the secondary, if at all?
Can you help me out? Sound off Addicts.
Well, generally speaking, cornerbacks in the 3-4 are left on an island with the outside receivers more often, since the 3-4 tends to be an aggressive, blitz-oriented scheme. Thus, your corners need to be fast and have good man coverage skills. Physically, Washington looks like a man cover corner: tall with long arms.
Flowers might have trouble at times, due to lack of pure speed, when he has to stay with a receiver deep downfield.
Safeties won’t be much different. Might require more man coverage from one of them.
Honestly, though, you can run a Cover 2 scheme out of 3-4 look. Considering the personnel they have, the defensive coaches might try to run a more zone-oriented scheme early on until they either get their type of player or the players they have successfully adapt.
April 30th, 2009 at 11:49 amSafeties and corners are more likely to blitz in a 3-4.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:00 pmKinda off the topic, but who plays NT in our 3-4? Will we run a hybrid, or something like the 3-4 Eagle that some teams have run in the past. Who do we have currently at LB that could even line up that way?
April 30th, 2009 at 12:14 pmDouble D, Thats true look at all the whacky blitz packages the Steelers run .You never know who or where the blitzer is coming from…
April 30th, 2009 at 12:38 pmTank Tyler and Ron Edwards will be our NT’s. I believe.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:39 pmThe Steelers also expect their dbs to assist in stopping the run. I don’t think they played a press. The Cards were able to move the ball well against them – after the 1st qtr – because the dbs had difficulty deciding whether to play the run or pass.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:50 pmI’m just gonna throw this out there so that it’s known: we are NOT switching to a strict 3-4.
Per kcchiefs.com: “They are going to play an odd-man front, the 3-5 or the hybrid 3-4 that actually has as many as five players on the line of scrimmage at the snap.”
That being said, who knows how the skills of Brandon Carr and Brandon Flowers will translate to the new defense? They both did nice jobs last season, expecially for being rookies… so hopefully they will be retained. My best guess is that there will be a good bit of rotation going on at just about every position on the defense.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:57 pmThe base Tampa-2 has CBs playing the short flat zone and assisting in run support on the outside edges. Thing is, given our pass rush futility last year, the second half of the season saw a lot more blitzing from our LB squad, which forced the CBs into man coverage which they handled surprisingly well. The 3-4 demands more man coverage from your CBs because you are sending LBs instead of dropping the LBs into middle coverage. I think they’ll do a sufficient job handling the man coverage role. As for Donald Washington, Haley in his press conference specifically mentioned Washington’s ability to man-up on the slot receiver, so it appears that we will see lots of man coverage this season and that Washington is probably penciled in as the nickel right now.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:16 pmAlakan nailed the answer – we can run zone, man to man, press, old skool bump and run – or any variation with the 3-4 or the hybrid D we may run.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:18 pmAs for bbq’s point regarding not running a strict 3-4, he is spot on. We have been practicing from a 4-3 Under formation thus far, which is kinda like a 3-4 hybrid with the seldom used 5-2. It looks like this will be our base D with some 3-4 looks blended in. After all, this is what Clancy was running in ‘Zona last season. I personally think this is the better D for our personnel as it utilizes Dorsey’s 3-technique ability as the under tackle, will put Tank at the nose, requires Tyson Jackson’s 5-technique ability on the strongside DE. What we lack for the formation right now is a strong “Predator”, a standing RDE. Perhaps Hali can be a better passrusher from a standing stance, but I think this is the kind of role we should start considering either Jason Taylor or potentially making a move on Peppers to fill this role.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:20 pmWhat about this guy for a RDE in standing pass rush?
http://www.kcchiefs.com/player/andy_studebaker/
I know nothing about him, but saw him on the roster and thought, why not?
April 30th, 2009 at 2:42 pmI think having Hali coming off the edge behind Jackson or whomever will be beneficial for the guy. I remember his first preseason that he got a good push and sometimes came free right away laying some solid licks on rbs and qbs but his production went seriously south shortly after that. This new formation might be the shot in the arm this guy needs. I honestly think he can still be useful to the chiefs.
Also I’m totally stoked on the scheme change. There are so many looks you can give an offense with these hybrid formations that the 4-3 just doesn’t seem to have.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:51 pmAlthough for the most part, the defensive backs were in zone coverage in the Tampon 2 last year there were times they were in “man” coverage. I got so sick of seeing us get burned over the middle in the soft Tampon 2 defense that I almost cheered when the backs were in man coverage. For the most part, when they were in man coverage, the defensive backs played pretty well. I would assume they would be able to duplicate and improve on that performance this year.
April 30th, 2009 at 3:05 pmI’ve always liked Brandon Carr better in man coverage. He can hang with just about anybody.
April 30th, 2009 at 3:35 pmYeah, it will be interesting to watch this year. Brandon Carr should come along nicely, I think.
April 30th, 2009 at 3:41 pmHerm = Awful, but he may have nailed it with Carr.
April 30th, 2009 at 10:12 pmneither Carr nor Flowers have shown any signs of weakness that I can see. Solid rookie corners last year, I think we got value out of picking Page and Pollard too, call me crazy but with us picking up this corner in the draft I am content with our secondary provided they perform well. I see no huge need to upgrade, let those guys develop. Now that we have drafted for D-line for the 3-4 I’d really like to see/develop/acquire a solid rushbacker for our 3-4, I guess Vrabel will work for a year but he’s old. After drafting defense and trading Tony G without any effort to add replace him, my biggest concern is offense at this point.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:27 amI read an article a few months ago that the Tampa 2 could be run out of a base 4 – 3 or the base 3 – 4, but is easier to do with the 4 – 3 scheme. This article indicated that the secondaries of both base defenses were inter exchangeable. I’ll take a look around and see if I can find a link to it and post it here.
May 1st, 2009 at 8:08 amHere’s what I found. It’s a really good read if you’re into understanding what the defense is doing. It talks about the different types of 3-4 defenses and about the secondary at the end of the article. Sorry if it isn’t what you’re looking for but it’s the best that I could find….
http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/5/7/481970/mhr-university-modern-3-4
May 1st, 2009 at 10:25 amConsidering we had the worst pass rush in the history of the NFL and we had 3 rookie corners, I think they did really well. If I’m not mistaken, Carr started every game and Flowers missed a couple (2 or 3). I think Pioli came here partly because he was impressed with the young players already on the roster, particularly the Brandons. They were drafted to be Tampa 2 corners, but they were in quite a lot of man because of the need to blitz. Since we didn’t get there with the blitz obviously, they had to cover longer than expected. Even though it was painful, our secondary should be really good due to the experience from last year. With more pressure from the front 7, our secondary could blossom into one of the best in the AFC.
May 1st, 2009 at 10:29 amI agree. I hate to bring up NE, but look what they did with just a mess of a secondary. I mean they even had Troy Brown playing CB on there superbowl run. Aside from Samuels, they pretty much started guys who at the time were no-namers, and it’s been that way for a while. I think we are in good shape. Next draft we will need some youth at LB and then that defence should be set.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:28 amExactly. Pioli is building this D into the form of NE up front, and now he has more to work with in the back 4. Watch out for Morgan this year. He will definitely push for time.
May 2nd, 2009 at 11:48 amMorgan has some potential, thats for sure.
May 3rd, 2009 at 10:10 amok , for this season it doesnt matter who we have we allready have cover 2 personell, so this year it dont matter…
this post also points to what several people as well as myself have said for the last ten years…we blame the coach and fire his ass every couple years, and like this year, look at any post and you will see, people blame the last coach for the bad players…
they are NOT bad players they just dont fit no more.
hell we already have people crying we dont need the two new D Ends……lol or the guys we had suck…
and why is it people completely over look johnson…
it is as if you already place him with wesley…
Johnson will be a very good linebacker in this scheme! it isnt his fault he has had three different defs’ to learn.
it wasnt wesleys fault they switched up the def. when your idot favorite dick useless (guy who actually ruined the chiefs) vermen… went to a no def. def.
May 3rd, 2009 at 8:41 pmwesley went from playing close to the line to not being able to fly in the deep and cover…lol
redbeard: “There is iron in your words of war. Therefore there is also iron in your words of peace. It will be peace.”
Seriously. Your words ring true. Wesley could really stick his nose in there and that made him more effective in coverage – but as a changeup, not on every down. START by forcing the offense to account for him as a pass-rusher/run-stuffer. Force ‘em to put that poor pass-catching RB in the backfield, because he’s the only guy who can BLOCK your safety and THEN let him drop back and follow his instincts as an extra hat in an area the offense isn’t expecting him.
Seemed like the coaches wanted to direct traffic too much, and ignored what their players were GOOD at. Then the COACHES could always blame the player for missing an (overly complicated) assignment.
May 3rd, 2009 at 8:59 pmI thought Vermeil was solid. Addressed the biggest weaknesses right outta the gate. Fell short on defensive talent, largely by misunderstanding the marketplace and looking for 1 or 2 big-money players to seal the deal, rather than systematically upgrading the talent. But I blame that on Cunningham, who DOES understand a certain style of defense, but only knows the one way and doesn’t know what to do when the cards (talent) doesn’t fall into his pigeonholes.
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:04 pmthank you mills…lol thats said what I wanted to much better…lol
and not just wesley others had the same thing happen…thanks for the help:)
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:07 pmI liked gunther but not his ability to adjust…weather it be weekly or by the half
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:09 pmSomeone said:
I remember his first preseason that he got a good push and sometimes came free right away laying some solid licks on rbs and qbs but his production went seriously south shortly after that. This new formation might be the shot in the arm this guy needs. I honestly think he can still be useful to the chiefs.
I’ve said pretty much the same thing, myself. He scouted at that time as being a great clozer for a big man, but lacked core body strength needed in a true big man. So he became a “bulk-up project.” Lost some of what made him special in the process. His sole remaining shot, it seems to me, is to be productive from an upright stance.
He’s still adequate as a good DE opposite a monster DE, like he was opposite Jared Allen’s one-trick-pony-show. Sort of a Darren Mickell, who’s good enough opposite Neil Smith, especially with a designated pass rusher on his shoulder.
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:09 pmmakes me wonder about our safties this year…
neither has the speed to cover deep when the other is up close to the line. they have so far worked well and learned well together.
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:12 pmAgain, I need to get an in with NFL films, so I can look at last season’s DBs.
On-topic:
Chiefs will need to come up and press more (in ordere to please ME). You do NOT give up your DBs’ ONE shot at the WR for free. If that means using a Jarrad Page up in apparent press coverage, so be it. I keep talking about inverted cover-1 and cover-2, but nobody takes me up on it.
Flowers would be a big threat playing the deep 1/3 in the 4-3 under, in a scheme that let’s him see the whole field. Donald Washington would fit that, too. The kid has great field vision, and, even if only as a changeup, I see the Chiefs getting a lot of mileage out of inverted coverages.
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:19 pmI’m just thinking the thing to do is sticking Flowers in the middle, like a Blaine Bishop. Let him play in space without giving away an obvious physical mismatch by bringing him up in press (at least not very often). I always wanted the Chiefs to do that with Mighty Mouse, a few years back.
Put somebody big enough to intimidate the WR physically, at the line, and sneak that little guy in over the top, with both the receiver and the QB in his field of vision, while the jamming safety blitzes or plays run after the jam.
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:25 pmTake away that maddening short slant by having a small quick (not necessarily FAST) guy threatening to make a break into the flat. Offense might hit a couple, but you’re going to get your share of Pick-6’s out of that little guy who can make plays on the ball, especially if he’s a good tackler (like Flowers), who can perform x-ray attacks against the run when he blitzes.
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:31 pmredbeard: I agree on Gun’s slow adjustments. In fairness, though, there were far too many games when the offense started with quick 3-and-outs, giving the defense no time to gather itself and concoct evil plots against the QB.
BTW: Article on Hali shootin’ to play LB at 250 lbs
May 6th, 2009 at 11:47 pm