AA Greeting: Chiefs Nation Way Off On Cassel, Sanchez, Thigpen
Every Monday, Arrowhead Addict editor/lead writer Adam Best will kick off the week with his AA Greeting — his one-of-a-kind POV on all things Chiefs.
What is this gibberish I’m reading around Chiefs Nation that Mark Sanchez didn’t fare well at the combine. Really? What are my fellow Red-and-Golders smoking?
Today, Scout Inc.’s Todd McShay — who’s Gus Johnson to Mel Kiper’s Dick Vitale — raved about Sanchez, especially his confidence, ability to break down film and intangibles. In fact, McShay talked about the “it” factor. You know, the one I’ve been saying that Sanchez has and Matt Stafford doesn’t for weeks now. Well, apparently quite a few of the personnel folks he talked to agree with me. He even said that there is some movement from Stafford to Sanchez as to who the No. 1 quarterback is.
SportingNews.com’s Russ Lande said:
Southern Cal’s Mark Sanchez helped himself in passing drills and tests. He showed a quick, compact delivery and release. He drove into his passes and the ball exploded out of his hand. His throws had good velocity and a tight, clean spiral. With Georgia’s Matthew Stafford choosing not to throw, Sanchez proved their competition to be the draft’s top quarterback is far from over. Teams were impressed that Sanchez decided to throw and did not look nervous or anxious.
A ball of nervous energy, USC QB Mark Sanchez had a good throwing performance Sunday at the combine.
After scouring the Interwebs and watching the combine since it kicked off, it seems like most, if not everyone, has been pretty damn impressed by the kid I’ve taken to calling Dirty. So, Don Banks wasn’t impressed. No offense, Don, but after reading your stuff over the years, I’m not so sure Tyra Banks doesn’t know more about the NFL than you do.
Then there’s the fervor behind the Tyler Thigpen movement. Dammit! I just wish Chiefs fans didn’t let their wishful thinking cloud their judgment so much. That’s called being a homer.
But call me Brian Wilson, because for a while there even I was singing “Wouldn’t It Be Nice.” You know, as in wouldn’t it be nice if some seventh-round, third-string quarterback who once got cut by the effin’ Vikings miraculously became our franchise quarterback? But as the season progressed and Thigpen lost game after game, almost never playing well during crunch time, I soured on him. Hey, Tony Gonzalez has carried the jocks of a lot of pedestrian quarterbacks during his tight end reign of terror. This is just another one for us to add to the list.
I also have seen numerous Chiefs fans — not just on this site either — trying to sell that Thigpen’s as good as Matt Cassel. Keep telling yourself that and maybe, just maybe, one day you’ll really believe it.
The reasoning behind this is always that Randy Moss and Wes Welker blow away what we have. Really? I mean, Dwayne Bowe and Tony Gonzalez, the best tight end of all time, aren’t a couple of scrubs. Oh, and only one of these guys made the Pro Bowl this year — Tony G. Sure, Cassel’s offensive line was better, but what about his backs? Kevin Faulk and a bunch of punks and nobodies? BenJarvus Green-Ellis? That sounds like a disease, man. Meanwhile, we had Jamal Charles and Larry Johnson for most of the season. I really don’t think Cassel was at that much of an advantage, especially when you consider that he had to deal with things like actual expectations and pressure, not to mention playing in a much, much better division.The AFC West was garbage last year, especially defensively.
Sorry, but Thigpen is just not in Cassel’s league.
Just read what Peter King had to say about Cassel today, from SI.com:
I’m surprised that a quarterback who played as well as Cassel did for the last 10 weeks of the season is being viewed by most people in the league as too risky to chart a long-term course with. It’s not often in free agency or in trade that a young quarterback with promise is available. And while I understand it’s a millstone around Cassel that he’d require probably two fairly high picks plus an average of $14 million-ish a year in a contract, I still think I’d rather have Cassel as my quarterback of the future than, say, Matthew Stafford. And the money’s not that much different.
Cassel is the real deal, folks. I don’t think anybody would be writing that about Thigpen if he was franchised or even a free agent right now. Then again, I can’t ever see a QB of his caliber being franchised.
Another thing I keep reading over and over and over again is shock that anybody at all is discussing the Chiefs picking or trading for a quarterback with Thigpen in the fold. Wake up, people! If you don’t have a very good quarterback, then you don’t have a quarterback at all. Period. Considering that quarterback is the single most important position in the NFL and we don’t have a good one, yeah, it’s going to be a top priority. Probably the priority. You can have all the Aaron Currys in the world running amok, but if you have a hack quarterback it won’t make any difference.
Am I being hard on Thigpen? No. Not at all. He had a prolonged audition that he never really earned before being thrust into the starting line-up. Our offense was 26th in the league in scoring. Our defense was 29th in points allowed, which means that we had to be aggressive on offense to try and keep pace. Suddenly, the ArrowSpread and Thiggy don’t look so hot any longer. Then you throw in his completion percentage, and it’s not looking good for Thigpen.
It’s never personal. I was hard on Brodie Croyle because I didn’t see him ever being a winning quarterback. He had a lot of starts, and could never win a game. Meanwhile, Thigpen has now had a good chunk of starts, too, and the only game he has won was that freebie up in Oakland. And that game was definitely a freebie. I know — I was there!
I really don’t care if all of Chiefs Nation agrees with me on this one. When it comes to quarterbacks, my track record — Brodie Croyle, Matt Ryan, etc… — speaks for itself. I am confident that Thigpen will not be our quarterback of the future. Very confident.
I also don’t think that there is any way men like Todd Haley and Scott Pioli are going to hedge their careers on Thiggy Smalls. Just writing that makes me feel a little ridiculous, actually. In case you forgot, the Herm Edwards era is over. The Pioli Trinity will bring someone in to at least compete with him. I guaran-damn-tee you that. If he wins the job, hey, more power to him. That would be a dream come true for me, as I’ve been waiting my whole life for the Chiefs to find a young franchise QB. I just can’t see it. Sorry.
The other thing I keep reading that irks me is this Aaron Curry is the “safe” pick, the “safest pick in the draft.” Makes me want to puke. Hey, the kid has a great story and is a phenomenal athlete. But he’s a middle freakin’ linebacker in a year when linebackers seem to be miraculously raining from the sky like frogs or something! Let’s get serious here. Is Chiefs Nation still so haunted by the ghost of Todd Blackhedge that we remain scared you-know-what-less when it comes to drafting or trading for a promising young quarterback.
What was that expression? Scared money don’t make money. I’m confident that The Pioli Trilogy realizes that. They aren’t going to allow the ghosts of Chiefs’ past or any wishful thinking to lead them down the wrong path.
Me? I don’t call the shots, but I’m liking Cassel and Sanchez more and more every single day (I still like Michael Crabtree as well, by the way). Hopefully, the Chiefs are, too, because these kids have the chops to become star quarterbacks in this league under the right guidance (ahem, Todd Haley).
P.S. – With free agency around the corner, and us almost certainly moving to a 3-4, I’m thinking these will be my top candidates when I drop my free agency post later this week, which will probably be another Blueprint…
- ILB Bart Scott
- DE Chris Canty
- OT Khalif Barnes
Lance Moore is also a guy who’s very, very intriguing to me. I think he could become a star in Haley’s system.
This is where I stand in regards to fear. I am against drafting any QB in the top three rounds. As stated time and time again, we have many more needs. The teams that should draft a QB early this year are the Jets,49ers,and maybe Tampa. Notice these teams are far from empty on talent as the Chiefs are,and can afford to risk a picking what very few have called a franchise QB (Stafford or Sancez).
What would happen if Sancez/Stafford is drafted #3. There is no way either one (both JR’s) would start 09 behind center. You must and have admitted that Thigpen has shown SOME good things. So, Thiggy starts on what has to be a better team, and has an above average year. What now for 2010, you just wasted your #3 overall for a backup. Even worse than Carl drafting Larry when I could have gained 1,000 yds behind our line.
What would happen if we traded for Cassel. We would give up at least one 1st round pick,maybe two. Then we would have him for one year at $14 million, which is much more than he would have received in FA. Giving up that cash would hurt our cap and prevent other signings in key areas. All this for a guy that had a one good year on a team that went 16-0 the year before. Cassel’s team lost 5 more games than Brady’s, and missed the playoffs. Before anyone says Cassel was like a rookie, that is the same argument for Thigpen.
I would attack the QB situation this way. Cut Brodie, try to trade Huard to Dallas or maybe New England. Draft Nate Davis or Rhett Bomar in the four round or later. Attempt to trade LJ and a fifth for Brett Brohm in Green Bay. Go to camp with Thigpen,Brohm, Draftee and Grey-Most likely cut Grey.
February 24th, 2009 at 1:11 amStat’s sometimes are less than honest, Thigpen has a poor stat -Comp %. By the way his 18td’s (fewer games) ranked 13th in the NFL.
Lastly, DAN MARINO=no SB win.
Alrighty, few things i like, few things i disagree with.
Firstly, I really like Sanchez, but not at pick 3. If we swap down then yes, but at 3, no.
As for Cassel, we will remember his name next season, but after 2 seasons, and until Brady retires, he will be a ghost. He is a product of a fantastic system, not a great QB. You put anyone as the patriots QB and they will succeed. With a fantastic O-line and great receivers, any QB can be great. With a fantastic defense, any QB can put up alot of wins. Look at Kerry Collins, Gus Ferotte, Jake delhomme, Joe Flacco, Pennington, Garcia…. The names are infinite over the last 10 years. You could even put Roflsburger on that list.
When our defense turns over a new leaf, which in my oppinion can be next year. Thiggy will put up atleast 8 wins. If we draft a QB, or bring in another QB, they will put up 8 wins. You cant blame thiggy completely for our win-loss record. If our defense stepped up and dominated, we could of easily gone even last year.
We NEED to draft Curry if he is on the board at 3. Not because he is the safest pick. Its because of what he will bring to the defense. When we can stop the run, we will be a good defense. When we force them to pass and can get sacks, we will become a great defense. When we can put on continual pressure for 60 minutes we will become a fantastic defense.
February 24th, 2009 at 1:12 amWow Adam! Did someone piss in your corn flakes this morning?! Tim good point “You cant blame thiggy completely for our win-loss record.” Like the pundits are always saying and this years SB proved, DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS! Ask Dan Marino about being arguably the best QB of all time and NOT winning because they had no defense to stop the other team.
Am I saying that TT is our saviour at the QB position? Not likely, but I do believe with an improved line AND defense, through FA or the draft, HE WINS MORE GAMES! Tyler put the Chiefs in position to win at least 5 or 6 more games this past year and the DEFENSE gave the games away. Ok, ok, ok, the coaching wasn’t that great either, but you get the point. Here’s the question Adam. ARE YOU STATING NOW, THAT SANCHEZ WILL BE THE NEXT RYAN OR FLACCO? Quite frankly I doubt it. He may have the IT factor, but that will turn into an OH SHIT factor when the line or D is not improved because we wasted a #3 on him. Dave Carr sound familiar? Joey Harrington? If we have to take an offensive weapon at 3, I say take Crabtree. I am hoping that Pioli is as smart and Haley is as smart as we think they are and they go after Curry, Everett Brown or Orakpo with #3. Our LB, DE, DL positions are our biggest problems. I see that being fixed with the first pick, O-line with the 2nd pick and back to whichever position wasn’t filled with the first pick, LB or DL.
As for Cassel. I personally don’t think the Pats would let him go. Only Pioli and the Pats know if that is even a slight possibility. If we could trade LJ and a lower pick than our first two this year, then yeah, I say take the shot at Cassel. He did well on an already SUPER BOWL TEAM! Had Cassel been with the Chiefs, the record WOULD have been the same because we had NO DEFENSE!
February 24th, 2009 at 1:43 amOh and offense didn’t win the SB for Pittsburgh. Arizona’s lack of being able stop Pittsburgh after holding them the whole game is what won Pitt the SB. If they had played the same way they had all game, AZ wins not Pitt.
February 24th, 2009 at 1:47 amHey did anyone ever bother to see what the stat comparison was between TT and MC from the same starting point? I am wondering if they are much closer, except of course the win column?!
February 24th, 2009 at 1:49 amFA Wish List Ranking:
1-Haynesworth DT
2-Bart Scott LB
3-Jason Brown C
4-Channing Crowder LB
5-Lance Moore WR
6-Andra Davis LB (if needed)
Draft Curry or OT RD1
February 24th, 2009 at 2:04 amDraft Ayers or Johnson DE RD2
Long post Adam, like others here i agree with you in some areas and not in others:
Agree:
-We completely see 100% eye to eye on Crabtree i believe.
-I’m glad Sanchez is doing well, and if it was between him and Stafford i might favor Sanchez but like an above poster mentioned we better like him a lot if we take him at #3.
-Your FA list
Disagree:
-The whole comparing the Chiefs to the patriots thing was off base in my opinion. Normally on AA i would say i agree with your posts more than the other posters but i completely disagree on this one. Sure Tony G + Bowe compared to Moss and Welker is a decent comparisson however, their line wasn’t a little better it was A LOT better, their runningbacks were decent and yes better than our RBs last year. Their defense, their coaching, the patriots are the model of success in the league for a reason and the chiefs are no where close at this point. Plus you bring in the idea that Cassel had been there for years learning the System and Thigpen was basically playing in that for the first time.
Comparing the two, not even close in situation.
If that were the case you’d have to tell me Thigpen couldn’t win 8 games in New England, and Cassel could win more than 5 in KC.
Having said that i’m not sold on THigpen being the future and i agree we need to bring in some competition
February 24th, 2009 at 4:50 amSicne Pioli was with the Patriots, they never selected a qb before round 3. With the good job of picking Brady and Cassel late in the draft, I don’t see him changing his ways now.
Thigpen threw more TD’s then the Super Bowl winning QB Rothlisberger, your boy Matt Ryan and Joe Flaco just to name a few. I don’t think being a “homer” is the correct term when it comes to Tyler, it called being realistic.
February 24th, 2009 at 5:13 amWe’ve all heard about Pioli never drafting a QB early and how he finds diamonds in the rough later rounds. Granted Pioli found Brady AND Cassell after the 5th round, but neither of them were brought in to start right away. They were groomed by Bellicek and the Patriot system while the team had success with their veteran Pro Bowl QB’s. (Bledsoe for Brady and Brady for Cassell) Never once has Pioli had to draft or bring in a QB to start…and that IS what we need. Pioli’s history may have little to do with his near future.
February 24th, 2009 at 8:22 am“What would happen if we traded for Cassel. We would give up at least one 1st round pick,maybe two. Then we would have him for one year at $14 million, which is much more than he would have received in FA.”
No, if the Chiefs traded for him, it would almost certainly depend on Cassel signing a long-term deal.
Also, the Patriots’ MO in using draft picks has been to do what they feel puts the Pats in the best position to win now *and* in the future (e.g., trading a second for Welker). If Pioli sees trading for Cassel as a sound option, that’s what he’ll do.
February 24th, 2009 at 8:39 amOK folks. I have watched Adam for the runup of two drafts. A pattern is starting to emerge. Let’s break down his thought process.
1] He sees ‘it’ in a skill player. He calls it going with his gut.
2] Goes on AA and raves about said skill player.
3] Creats false dichotomies for opposing views. That is, he views this in terms of only two choices, everything is black or white, no grey. At the same time, he occupies several positions: i.e. Cassel, Crabtree, Sanchez. This is called flexibility. Apparently, it’s a luxury only Adam has.
4] Disparages said created extreme opposite viewpoint.
5] Cherry picks stats to suit his case. Ignores or disparages other stats that don’t fit his case.
Adam, you say you go with your gut. I think you are off the mark high, by about a foot or so. Folks, the Crabtree Cubby Club has spawned a new organization. Meet the president and founder of the Sanchez Stiffy Squad, Adam Best. Give him a warm welcome folks, he is, ahem, hard up.
Seriously though, Adam. To you, Curry is overpriced, yet the cost of Cassel (over 14 million for one year and a first round pick plus) is fine? IMO let the Pats keep Cassel and struggle to fit him and Brady under the cap.
February 24th, 2009 at 9:04 amAlright listen I will admit that I have inflamed most of this controversy. All I have been saying and this will be the last time I promise is I dont believe Sanchez and Stafford are worth the #3 overall pick. Thats it, not that they wont be good QB’s (I admit Sanchez will probably be better than Stafford) I just dont think the Kansas City Chiefs need to take Sanchez or Stafford with the #3 pick. Second: I do not believe Tyler Thigpen is the franchise or will be the franchise QB of the KC Chiefs. All I’m saying is he should be our QB this year. Not to say someone doesnt overtake him. Competition is good. I would just hate for us to give up alot for Cassel when we have sooo many holes to fill.
Adam I usually agree with everything you say but the Pat’s are better than the Chiefs. In every way, at every position but one. D Bowe is not Randy or even Wes. Our RB’s are just as avg as theres.
Your record on QB’s- wow way to nail that Brokie wouldnt be that good. He had 3 knee surgeries coming out of college. He was never healthy. Matty Ice- wow way to go out on a limb and claim him as your favorite when he was the favorite coming out. Thats like me going I knew Jake Long was going to be a stud LT. Come on man, I’m always on your side but seriously?
What QB has Haley molded into a starter? Leinart? He has always been successful with VETERAN QB’s.
Finally yes QB is the most important position in the league but with so many holes is Sanchez or Stafford really worth #3. I cannot imagine thats how you are actually thinking the Chiefs might go. That goes against everything we know about Pioli.
Oh and wow man why so angry?
February 24th, 2009 at 9:14 amthis year thigpen had better individual stats than ben rothlisberger (sp?), and he led his team to a super bowl. so thigpen is obviously a serviceable qb.
cassel needed the patriots offensive line. i would take tony g and bowe easily over welker and moss, thats not the argument being made. i just dont see him being successful behind this patchwork of an o line.
stafford. one i think stafford is straight trash. starting qb for the dramatically overhyped and underachieving georgia bulldogs is not probable cause for a TOP 3 pick. late first AT BEST. i would prefer nate davis easily over stafford
sanchez. if it was sanchez or stafford, sure ill take stafford. if it was sanchez stafford or dwayne bowe in the shotgun at arrowhead, id take bowe. neither of these guys impressed me that much.
honestly i know the qb situation needs some effort, but i want to see thiggy given the team through camp to see how he runs it, then we can make judgement. if the qb need is really pressing for pioli and haley, i say draft either curry or crabtree first round and nate davis second round. i do love heyward-bey (sp?) so i think if we go curry we should go him, and then a qb in the later rounds. i dont think qb is that pressing off a need. sure we do need a solid backup, but thigpen deserves a shot at starting through camp. he did a hell of a job being thrown in behind a POS offensive line.
also pioli and his top qbs-brady and cassel, were both drafted late. do you think he will draft one top 3? hopefully not. bc there isnt a top 3 qb in this draft.
as for haley. look at the cardinals with leinart. he has done NOTHING in the nfl. he will be NOTHING but a backup and he is garbage. hopefully haley seeing the results of that first hand will go a different path.
sanchez and stafford ARE NOT the answer
February 24th, 2009 at 9:17 amand
thigpen deserves a full out camp to then be judged
Merlin the magnificent
February 24th, 2009 at 9:20 amas far as Thiggy being our future, I’m still not sure, but I don’t want Sanchez, Stafford or Cassel for what they would cost us. I’ve said it before and I’m sticking by it, I like Pat White. Draft him and let him Thiggy and Grey have it out. The only non-defensive pick I want to see with that #3 is Crabtree, if not him then we need to make our D respectable. We should grab a OT and DE or DT in FA and then draft Curry or Crabtree with the #3. If we made more stops on D last year Thiggy would’ve won us more games, plain and simple.
February 24th, 2009 at 9:30 ami think everyone is making this way to difficult…the game is won and lost in the trenches…what good is a quarterback if he’s running for his life and we can’t run the ball…guaranteed…first pick should b o-line…sure up defense through f-agency..trade lj…for what ever we can get…and draft a linebacker in the second round.since there is about 10-14 good ones….since the best dlineman will be gone…sure up the dline through fa..
February 24th, 2009 at 9:54 amhaynesworth would free up the whole d line to be more effective…he would get about 6 sacks…while freeing up the chiefs other chiefs to get another 20…due to double teams…not to mention the help he would be to stopping the run…our main weakness..if you ask me…
February 24th, 2009 at 9:56 amOkay first things first…”Sanchez Stiffy Squad”? +1 to Merlin.
The way this draft plays out for me depends completely on what happens between Friday at 12:01 and April 24th. If Pioli makes a big splash defensively in FA then the 3rd pick looks much different. But without key additions to the D, the risk vs. value equation must come into play with that pick. To me the 3rd overall pick is one that must see time on the field right away. Not someone you groom for a season or two. There is no denying that our offense needs a solid long term solution at the QB position. Unfortunately that is not the only gaping hole in this ship. Therefore, you HAVE to take a player that will improve your situation the quickest. Will taking Curry make this team a contender? Rhetorical alert: No. But will it be an immediate upgrade to the team? In my eyes yes. And seeing his attitude and play rub off on DJ would be, to quote my Dad,”gravy on the tater”.
February 24th, 2009 at 10:06 amYou might want to rethink your desire to see Lance Moore be a star in Haley’s system. If a team signs him they have to give up their second round pick. I’ll pass on giving up the 34th pick for Lance Moore.
February 24th, 2009 at 10:31 amLove the posts on this one. Let’s just hope the Pioli trinity is thinking the same way. However I am worried that the Lions took a while with Curry Yesterday. Thought for sure they would take an OL like Miami did last year.
February 24th, 2009 at 11:03 amKC has so many needs that they can pick almost anyone at the top of the experts board and be filling a need. So they must pick the guy they grade as the best player.
That being said, it is crazy talk to say KC should pass on a QB simply because we have Thiggy. Honestly, the case being made to keep Thigpen as ordained starter could be made for McIntosh at RT, Bradley at WR, Williams at LB, etc., and we all know we need upgrades at those positions. He has been moderately successful because he has locked in on #88 and forced 20 balls his way every week. To be the “QB of the Future” he has to be prepared for life without TG.
If they don’t go QB because someone else is graded higher, fine. But there’s no way they pass on the guy they think is “the guy” simply because we already have Thiggy.
February 24th, 2009 at 11:16 amAh its good to know your seeing the light Adam. I’ve been trying to get people on the Cassel/Sanchez band-wagon (and off of Crabtree) for some time. Welcome.
February 24th, 2009 at 11:23 amso here we go again. No one is saying he’s our franchise QB, and no one is saying dont draft someone b/c he’s there, the common theme is there is not a franchise QB in this draft and using the #3 would be an act of futility. And you made a good point about taking the top person on the board but you also made a good point about the situations at RT, WR and LB. I’ll even throw in D line. Yes we do need upgrades at all of those positions, my question to you Ike is who do you have at the top of your board Eugene Monroe, Jason Smith, Aaron Curry, Michael Crabtree or Sanchez/Stafford? Mine- Curry, Monroe/Smith.
February 24th, 2009 at 11:26 am“Sanchez Stiffy Squad” your table for two is ready.
February 24th, 2009 at 11:30 amikeadced – couldn’t have said it better myself.
I prefer to go defense, but I will be satisfied with Pioli’s pick no matter what it is (unless its the soon to be bathrobe wearing, highway wandering, setting piles of money on fire Andre Smith.)
February 24th, 2009 at 11:32 amAdam, I have got to disagree with you. Both Stafford and Sanchez are young and are a project. Even if they won the competition at camp, they have no one around them to help with their development short of the experts in the training room.
Anybody remember “Chris” happy feet Everett? To put a potential franchise QB in without putting talent around them is a receipt for disaster. Both Flacco and Ryan had good talent around them to take the pressure off and protect their development. More importantly, both teams had defenses which helped a great deal on field position. One other thing, BOTH Ryan and Flacco were 5th year seniors. That is a 2 full years of experience reading defensive schemes.
I will admit Sanchez had a good work out at the combine running drills in shorts. But he is immature off the field and should have stayed another year.
February 24th, 2009 at 12:20 pmAdam,
Your stats are a bit skewed because you’re lumping Thigpen’s stats in with Croyle, Huard, etc. If you look only at the the games where Thigpen was the starter, the Chiefs offense ranked in the top 5 on YPG. In other words, Thigpen’s offense was pretty damn productive by most people’s standards.
The other thing you are wrong about is attempting to make a comparison between guys like Thigpen, Cassel, and Ryan based solely on their performance over a single season. You can’t be so easily dismissive with such a limited volume of data. Under your reasoning, Aikman should have been kicked to the curb after going 0-11 as a starter. At a significantly different level, the same goes for guys like Sanchez and Freeman.
What’s more, making statements like Cassel is the “real deal” is analogous to saying that Trent Green and Elvis Grbac were also the “real deal” because, like Cassel, they also were able to up great stats behind a dominant offensive line. I’m just saying you have to allow for a little bit of context on this kind of stuff.
Let’s throw another stat out there just for fun. Thigpen has won exactly the same number of playoff games as Cassel and Ryan. Yes, believe or not, that is a fact. Bottom line, all 3 are unproven and very questionable in that important statistical arena.
I do believe that Thigpen has at least a couple of question marks that might be better developed through good coaching. Most notably, his ability and comfort level with taking snaps under center and learning to make plays on the other half of the field.
Last point – I do like Sanchez but his limited experience convinces me that he can only be considered a development project and thus unworthy (in ordinary years) of being a top 15 selection. He does not even come close to what Ryan offered as a draft prospect. Ryan carried BC on his back to success. Conversely, Sanchez enjoys the benefit of coming from a much more well-rounded program that is deep in talent on both sides of the ball. For example, I believe the USC’ defense held most of its opponents to less than 20 points – that tends to make life for just any college QB in big time system (like USC) a heck of a lot easier.
If the plan is to draft a development QB, why not just wait until the 3rd or later rounds to find one? Top 5 picks should always be viewed as having the potential to make an immediate impact. Sanchez will not be able to that.
February 24th, 2009 at 12:22 pmNice post DD. Too bad none of us will convince Adam that the #3 pick NEEDS to be OL or a defensive player.
February 24th, 2009 at 12:30 pmWell we dont need to this is his site isnt it? I think I heard something about that awhile back.
Excellent blurb DD
February 24th, 2009 at 12:32 pmLarry,
I don’t buy your surrounding talent argument. The Chiefs have more talent on offense than Flacco has with the Ravens. That argument doesn’t work.
February 24th, 2009 at 12:45 pmDD:
Excellent post. Like you, I see us taking a QB later on. I am thinking rounds 4-5 with rounds 1-3 devoted to D7 and O-line. We can have the best QB in the history of the NFL and we are not a playoff team until we fix those areas.
February 24th, 2009 at 12:53 pmFlacco had the benefit of a strong defense and a much better running game (not to mention Cam Cameron running the whole shebang). Sorry, Flacco=Bledsoe.
February 24th, 2009 at 12:54 pmMy two cents:
Crabtree (WR) in Round one, and Nate Davis (QB) in round two.
Bart Scott (LB) in free agency.
February 24th, 2009 at 1:00 pmFirst of all, Thigpen had an offense that was specially made, just for him. So essentially, comparing his stats to any other QB in the history of the NFL is ridiculous. I think what he did last year is irrelevant because we won’t be running that offense again with Todd Haley. Until he proves he can handle an NFL offense (and if ATL is any indication he won’t) he is a back up at best.
Second, does anybody NOT think that QB is the most important position in the NFL? No matter what you think, the Chiefs are still REBUILDING. With all the excitement in KC, I think some of you have way to high expectations. If I were to start a team from scratch, the first thing I’m gonna do is find me a QB. Yes, it is a huge risk spending that much money on Sanchez and that is exactly why Carl Peterson is gone, and the football operations are separated from the money operations; so there isn’t a conflict of interest.
Pioli talks about being a good football team for years to come. The only way that can be accomplished is by stabilizing the QB position. You will not find a team who year in and year had good teams, made the playoffs, and won in the post season that didn’t have a QB. Forget the argument about Thigpen, unless you think he will be a franchise QB who could win a super bowl, because he’s not the guy. Your kidding yourself if you think that Tyler Thigpen will lead a team to the Super Bowl. Peiod.
Lastly, there are an abundance of quality OL, DE, and LB in the draft and FA. There aren’t a lot of QBs…. ever! They are rare and you just don’t draft in the top 5 every year. We haven’t drafted a QB in the first round in two decades. Its time we BUILT a franchise around a QB.
Cassel or Sanchez. Take your pick. Nut up and go for it. This “he’s not worth number three but maybe later in the first” is Carl Peterson 101. Such a joke it makes me wanna puke.
February 24th, 2009 at 2:14 pmBaldy,
That’s also kind of my point–there is NO WAY I could know these guys a thousandth of a percent as well as Pioli and the coaching staff/scouts do.
It sounds like a cop-out and is extremely boring, but I DO NOT CARE who they pick…as long as they “get it right” and he’s a PLAYER and not some turd of a longshot or workout warrior or half-timer. I want the best player over the next decade.
Also, we don’t even know what our biggest needs are until after FA is over.
February 24th, 2009 at 2:35 pmLance Moore 2nd rounder would be in 2010. Think of it this way, you are trading Curry for Sancez or you are trading Curry,another guy like Curry, Tyler Thigpen (in a sense)and $14 mil for Cassel.
February 24th, 2009 at 2:37 pm447 -
Some of us put a lot of thought into our opinions and I would imagine most of us take our opinions seriously. Last year I was all over Matt Ryan going into the draft. This year, I don’t see anyone of that caliber. No joke.
I also happen to believe it is a horrible idea to ever reach for a QB when you have a top 5 pick just because you are desperate for a new QB. Highest ranked QB does not necessarily mean top 5 or even top 10. Put another way, when it comes to drafting for a certain position, some years can be better than others. No joke.
No matter what happens, one thing I do feel pretty good about is Pioli’s ability to acquire QB talent/potential regardless of whether that happens to be through the draft, from free agency, or sitting in his own back yard. No joke.
February 24th, 2009 at 2:40 pm“I think what he did last year is irrelevant because we won’t be running that offense again with Todd Haley.”
Really 447? Let’s see. The offense worked and scored points, maybe not enough to offset our D from letting opponents from tying or getting ahead, and Haley is keeping Chan Gailey as the OC, but you don’t think Haley is “possibly” thinking about running the same style of Offense? Why not? He likes to throw the ball and the last time I looked a spread offense is a good way to throw the ball. Not an ideal offense in my mind, but to quote an old saying, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it! Was the offense perfect? Not really, although compared to our own D it was closer to perfection than they could have been. I think if Haley tweaks it slightly and gets some better protection for TT, we might be able to compete better in the second half of games, which was a noted problem last year. Its funny to me that the supporters for a Cassel/Sanchez deal are saying we shouldn’t bring up the one year of starting up, but at the same time they are quoting the stats for TT in one game of a “regular” nfl offense. Not sure what a regular NFL offense is these days, especially with the collegiate wildcat formation showing up on so many NFL teams playbooks.
February 24th, 2009 at 2:52 pmIf forced to make a choice between Stafford and Sanchez, I’m going with Stafford. History has shown time and again that QBs with as little college starting experience as Sanchez rarely do well in the NFL.
That being said, QB is absolutely NOT the biggest position of need for the Chiefs, nor do I think that Stafford or Sanchez will be the BPA at #3, no matter who gets drafted by Detroit and St. Louis. LB, DL, OL, even WR – all of these are bigger needs than finding Thigpen’s competition/replacement. Besides, given time to develop and adapt to an offensive system that was instated not just for Thigpen’s benefit, but to mask our offensive line problems, Tyler might just surprise a lot of people.
February 24th, 2009 at 3:52 pmPioli had Bledsoe when he got on the scene. If I had, what I thought was my Franchise QB, I would draft others in late rounds too. Why not? I’m not saying he didn’t see something in Cassel or Brady, but he did not know Brady would be who he is today, or even that Cassel would be what he is.
Scouts aren’t predicting Stafford or Sanchez to be drafted in the top 10 or 5 just for the hell of it. There isn’t some rule that says a QB has to be taken in the top 10 or predicted to be.
And if we do run that spread offense, regardless of QB, we better figure out how to run the ball out of it. I guarantee we would have won a couple more games if we could have sustained a few drives in the second half and used the clock by pounding the ball with the run. Not to mention, the 3 and outs where Thiggy couldn’t complete a pass and a total of two minutes ran off the clock.
Honestly, at this point I want Sanchez. Will I be mad if we draft Curry or an O-lineman (Preferably Monore)? No. We’re drafting in the top 5 so I think we’re gonna get a helluva player regardless. However, I will be pist if we waste it on Crabtree.
February 24th, 2009 at 3:54 pmI’m going to have to agree with DD on this one. Alex Smith was a #1 overall in an extremely weak qb class. Aaron Rogers got to sit and learn behind a HOF QB for years before he took the reigns, so that was different. I’m thinking this QB class is more reminiscent of that one than the Eli, Rivers, and Big Ben class. You don’t necessarily need to find your franchise QB in the top 5. If Pioli thinks either Sanchez or Stafford is the BPA, then so be it. I doubt it though. The presence of Thiggy will not affect who we draft at that spot, period. Jason Smith seems to be shooting up everyone’s board. He straight mauls people in the run game and has the feet and athleticism to lock down speed rushers (and he stayed at the combine unlike the other Smith, who I used to be all about. Not anymore).
The bottom line is Pioli and Haley are trying to hoard as many good football players as they can, including Thiggy. A QB WILL be drafted and given the opportunity to compete with Thiggy, and let the best man win. Free agency will dictate whether Curry will happen. If we land Scott and Canty, we wouldn’t need LB’s as bad and could wait until later. One thing is for certain: this is a very deep draft at a bunch of positions, and with our draft position, we will get 1st round value in rd 2, 2nd round value in rd 3, etc. Best player available, always.
February 24th, 2009 at 3:56 pmIt seems to me that this new regime will get a quarterback at some point, but I don’t see them hitching their wagon to a 3rd overall QB selection. Based on Pioli’s comments at the combine and New Englands history I think that it makes more sense to trade down the #3 pick for more picks and/or a veteran.
I am no Merlin but my fantasy wizardry hat says that we will trade the #3 pick to Chicago for Alex Brown and their first round pick. We can still get a solid LB or OL in the first round and add a mutch needed pass rusher.
I like Sanchez but not enough to spend the #3 overall pick on him. I think Nate Davis and Josh Freeman have higher upsides, and would be a better value. Josh Freeman running the Arrowspread in 2 years could be dangerous!
February 24th, 2009 at 5:12 pmPatrick Surtain-DB-Chiefs Feb. 24 – 6:04 pm et
Chiefs released CB Patrick Surtain.
The move clears over $6M in cap space. Surtain was an effective starter three years ago, but his play fell off a cliff the following season and he lost his nickel back job to undrafted rookie Maurice Leggett in 2008. Surtain, who turns 33 in June, will probably not catch on elsewhere this offseason.
February 24th, 2009 at 5:25 pmSource: Profootballtalk.com
447 a couple of things:
Who lost the games down the stretch Thigpen or the Defense. Serious answers only. Was it Tyler that lost the game or the D gave it away.
Draft experts: Really? Mel Kiper is a douche bag. McShay is only cool when he’s arguing with the afore mentioned douche bag. Mayock is the only one I listen to. They have them going in the top 5 because of teams needs, not b/c theyre the highest rated player on the board. Come on your better than that.
Offense: Ya its not typical, it was designed around his strength, it was effective. So if you dont like the spread why are you even supporting Haley? Arizona was almost dead last in rushing. Pretty sure they chucked the ball ALOT.
Your comment about the running game has been my point the whole time! Without one the QB has to do what TT did. And without an OL none of this conversation matters. If we take Sanchez over Monroe or Smith did we improve the offense. He still wont have enough time to make his reads and he is now David Carr. And nothing will stunt a QB’s growth more than a shotty line.
So again what weve been saying is: Yes Tyler Thigpen is not the franchise QB. Yes we should look into upgrading. No we should not take Sanchez or Stafford with #3 overall. Thats it.
February 24th, 2009 at 5:26 pmWhere has Adam been? He started this whole argument?
February 24th, 2009 at 5:29 pmYea, I finally agree with him on something and he isn’t here to help me out!
Anyways Baldy, Those guys maybe douche bags, but they know way more about this shit than anyone on here, myself included.
Also, I have been skeptical of Haley. I hated the fact they didn’t run the ball last year. Remeber, they did only win 9 regular season games, some in which they were blown out badly. Aside from Fitz, the run game was the x-factor that propelled them to the SB.
The defense lost most the games, but Thiggy lost some too. No doubt in my mind. Atl sticks out, but I could find others where a late pick cost us the game.
February 24th, 2009 at 6:03 pmMike Merritt-TE-Chiefs Feb. 24 – 6:59 pm et
Chiefs waived TE Mike Merritt.
Merritt was arrested for marijuana possession earlier this month, which may end the 2008 seventh-round pick’s career. He was only a blocker anyway.
Donnie Edwards-LB-Chiefs Feb. 24 – 6:57 pm et
Chiefs released LB Donnie Edwards.
Edwards’ cap number was $6.5 million, he was only healthy enough for seven games last season, and he turns 36 in April. The minimum salary is nearly $1 million for 13-year veterans, making Edwards an unattractive pickup. Teams would probably be better off signing a rookie free agent for $310,000.
Damon Huard-QB-Chiefs Feb. 24 – 6:50 pm et
Chiefs released QB Damon Huard.
Donnie Edwards and Pat Surtain were also cut in moves that save over $9 million in cap room. Old GM Carl Peterson re-signed Huard to a $7.5 million deal two offseasons ago after he went 5-3 and posted an 11:1 TD to INT ratio in eight starts. He was supposed to eventually pass the torch on to Brodie Croyle, but Croyle hasn’t panned out and Huard has battled a number of minor injuries that can probably be attributed to old age. Turning 36, Huard could follow his younger brother Brock to the broadcast booth.
February 24th, 2009 at 6:09 pmSad day…Donnie was so good back in the day….should have never let him leave in the first place…
February 24th, 2009 at 6:16 pmThose who know me, know I am a long time Thiggy backer. With that disclaimer let’s look at some stats.
In the 10 games Tyler started to finish the year, he completed 58% of his passes, with 2216 yards, 16 TDs, and 8 INTs. He also had 326 rushing yards in those games. Projected out over a 16 game season, his numbers would have been 3,545 Yards, 26 TDs, 13 INT, and 538 rushing yards. Now you can say we ran the Arrowspread and blah blah blah. But you know what? Peyton Manning plays with 3 WR every down, Warren Moon played in the run and shoot, and Dan Marino played on teams that barely tried to run the ball. Yet all 3 are (or will be) HOF’s. The Arrowspread scored points and Haley’s offense figures to be very similar, especially when you consider Chan Gailey is still the OC.
I also think his rushing totals could go way up. Herm was terrified of his QB running and freely admitted it. Only in the final quarter of the year did Herm seem to loosen the reigns a little and let Thiggy run (even letting Chan design some QB running plays). In a full season (if he could survive physically) I think Thiggy could top 800 yards rushing. Despite this aspect of his game, Adam continues to call for Mike Vick who never dreamed of putting up passing numbers like Thiggy did.
Another interesting stat is this: With at least 1 TE in the game, Tyler had a 97 Rating and completed 62.8 pct of his passes. With 4 WR or more, he had a rating of 57.3 and completed just 51.8 pct of his passes. Granted the TE in question was almost a HOFer, but he clearly did perform better with a TE in the lineup. To hear some people (like Adam) tell it, Tyler was only successful when the Chiefs were 5 wide and slinging it all over. One more note: Tyler threw 5 TDs and no picks with 2 TE’s on the field. Drive another nail into the coffin of the people who don’t think Thiggy can play in a pro-style offense.
Thiggy in ‘09!!!
February 24th, 2009 at 6:53 pm447 everyone was bad in the Atlanta game. That was the first regular season game he ever started (I think) so essentially throwing a rookie LT and QB against John Abraham = bad game for the offense.
Yes I admit the douche bag comments were probably out of line. They do know more than we do.
Arizonas Defense, Jake Delhomme, and Larry Fitzgerald got them over the top and into the superbowl, not there running game. Barely 100 yds a game and two total rushing TD’s in the playoffs. 33 yds in the superbowl?
February 24th, 2009 at 7:13 pmDoes anyone have any insightful information on that cat Jason Brown from the Ravens. A center I believe. News coming out says that they will be keeping him or Scott. I assume Scott (but hope not) but we need a center so…
February 24th, 2009 at 7:17 pmGreat thread, guys.
Baldy and Co., I have a new approach. I am now reading all of the comments and keeping them in mind for future posts, like my follow up to this one. Because of that, I am not going to be commenting much. I feel that will give us better content, and free me up to write more column-style pieces. I think it will work out well for me, AA and its readers.Trust me when I say I read every comment. I really do. Every single one. Always have.
I will say that what’s kinda douchy is to be like everybody else and dogpile on all things ESPN. I think Kiper, McShay and Mayock are all good at what they do for sure.
February 24th, 2009 at 7:31 pmBy the way, this comment thread just went gold (50, let’s see if we can take it platinum (100). Even if we have to make it a “Yay! Surtain is gone” thread. No more tuck drill with Damon Huard either. Donnie will be missed, though.
February 24th, 2009 at 7:32 pmOne other note: The Michael Vick campaign died when The Pioli Trinity came to be. It’s dead because it no longer makes sense. I made this clear some time ago.
February 24th, 2009 at 7:35 pmLet me just say that I have been following/reading this site for a while now, and this thread finally motivated me to sign in and comment. Keep up the good work AA!
I have to agree with Baldy, it certainly was not Thiggy that lost us games down the stretch, and the kid played with so much heart that I would argue that he was the reason we were in so many games. Is he going to be a 10 year starter for us? No. Can he be a killer change of pace backup, that when called upon is going to play his ass off and give D’s a different look? Hell Yes.
My personal blueprint has us trading for Alex Brown, signing Channing Crowder, drafting Rey M. so that all three can compliment DJ. I think Alex can play either D End or OLB depending on whether we go to a 3-4 or not.
With the additional cap space that we just created I think that 1 or 2 OL positions will be addressed in FA.
February 24th, 2009 at 9:30 pmAssuming we switch 1st rounders. Like your plan.
February 24th, 2009 at 9:43 pmI don’t like Stafford with our #3 pick, but if he were there, I would not be upset if we took him. He was at least the second rated QB on most analists boards before the draft door closed. But Sanchez was projected to be the fifth or sixth best QB that could come out this year. Then a bunch of underclassmen return to school, he has a good bowl game and bam! we’re talking about picking him at #3. Howabout we shore up our defense and OL this year, then pick up one of the guys that were consistently ranked ahead of him all year, next year. Sanchez would likely ride the bench while he matures anyway, and if there are three good QB’s next year, we could snag one even if we had a winning record. I don’t think Thigpen is Mr. Right, but if we can be patient enough to wait for our potential HOF QB, he might be Mr. right now.
February 24th, 2009 at 11:19 pmNO ADAM! I would rather have your comments to our rantings than wait for a post that may not come for a couple of days. I am getting old and don’t want to have to go back to see what comment you are lambasting me for!! LOL!
February 25th, 2009 at 9:41 amDonnie leaving sucks and is sad considering the player he was.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:43 amGood riddance Merritt. Did he even play once this past year?
February 25th, 2009 at 9:44 amDamon did a decent job for us some times, but he is getting old and, you have to admit, he got the shit beat out of him by our non-blocking offensive line.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:45 amSurtain…….when he first got here, he did pretty good for us I thought. Maybe I was wrong. Leggeitt is better and seemed to prove it down the line. I am looking forward to see what he does next year.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:46 am