Behind Enemy Lines: Us On Them

One good draft and everyone loves you.

This show of Carl Love must be a morning requirement in the KC Chiefs offices to log on and support Darth Peterson.
I love this "He gets results and operates the team at a profit."

You forgot to add, "at the expense of our fans and their emotions" at the end.

PV - Are you still saying there was no five year plan? Seriously?

That's my last word on it.
I do agree that the playoff losses are mostly laid at Marty's feet, however.

I would actually like him to move over to the business side permanently and hand things over to Kuharich, which I've said before.

I have no problem with Carl staying as long as he continues to focus more on the business side, and lets Kurarich, Farmer and Herm continue to call a lot of the shots when it comes to player development. There is no doubt that he's a shrewd, competent business man, maybe too shrewd from a fan's POV.

It's not just that he hasn't won a ring. He hasn't won a playoff game in 15 years! I'm fine with him staying for now, especially with what I said above but eventually someone has to pay the price for not winning in the playoffs. It won't be us and it certainly won't be Clark Hunt. Carl and Herm have to make this rebuilding plan work in the next two or three years. End of story. You can't blame Marty for Vermiel's and Herm's playoff losses, when they even got there.

I don't think I said it, but I do tend to agree with it. Marty's greatest weakness was his tendency to become an uberconservative ubercoach in the playoffs. The real reason Marty could no longer be HC of the Chiefs is because he lost the respect of his key players, and when you do that, you lose control of the team.

Adam, your position he should go just because they havent won a ring is lame. There's a LOT more things you have to judge in order to evaluate a GM than just the ring. To run King Carl off just for that one reason is short-sighted and juvenile.

He's a great GM, and there's a reason he's the longest tenured GM in the game today. He gets results and operates the team at a profit. As long as he continues to field a team that makes money, and he wants the job - he will be the GM in KC, and I for one am glad to know he's there.

DD is right to lay the playoff failures of the 90's at Marty's feet. That's where they belong, and his playoff records in SD and Cleveland prove it.

Chiefs were also a wildcard when they won the Superbowl (way back in the first ice age).

As far as King Carl goes, the guy probably infuriates me more than not but in all fairness I do have to give him much of the credit for the reclamation and redefinition of Chiefs Nation. I also agree that the time for the winding down of his tenure is past due. A fresh approach seems in order.

King Carl won't be going anywhere with this kind of support. All I'm saying is that after a while, if you don't have that ring it's time to pack your bags. No other GM has gotten as fair of a shake as King Carl has. Period. He's had a lot of success, but at some point if things don't work out you go another way. That time may not be here yet, but it's approaching.

"So the last quote PV…when he specifically says “my five year plan”…"

Carl was talking about people like YOU razzing him for this supposed "five-year plan"...my word, the Chiefs had the best record in football in the decade of the 1990's. Do you think that maybe the reason we had little success in the playoffs might have had something to do with that guy who was coaching basically the San Diego All-Stars, and STILL couldn't win the big one?

I'd actually prefer the 9-7 two seasons in a row, but that might just be me. At least then we're a winning football team, and could pull something out of our asses in the playoffs. Wildcards do win Super Bowls (Steelers, Giants) and just because you dominate in the regular season doesn't mean yu'll come away with a championship (Chargers, Patriots).

I know, Double D. I think we are closer in our POV on this than it originally seemed. It's just that there was no earthly reason for us to win that Jets game last year, when it was essentially a playoff game where the loser got the better draft pick. Had we have been more fortunate in the coin flip contest, we might have even picked a spot higher.

Two years ago when we were all but eliminated from the playoffs, I was as positive as could be about our chances, pom-poms in hand. It's just that when you are officially out, sometimes practicality needs to enter the equation.

Also, if someone hypothetically asked me this question:

Would you rather: A.) Go 9-7 two seasons in a row; or B.) Go 4-12 again followed by an 11- or 12-win season?

I'm sorry, but I'm going with option B. I'd rather wait and be a contender than get the instant, yet unsatisfying, gratification of being a pretender who backs into the playoffs. In the heat of the moment, however, it's not really like that and who knows how things would turn out.

Personally, I'm just sick of sneaking into the playoffs and losing every time. I'm willing to go through whatever it takes to win in the playoffs, basically.

Double D: Seriously epic comments, man. Great job.

ALSO THANKS ZACH

GREAT COMMENTS DD WELL SPOKEN

New Rule:

Crane and SBC dont talk to each other. Obviously you two don't agree about shit. So lets just not talk to one another. Problem solved.

Adam - didn't mean to imply you were saying it but the sentiment about not even trying was expressed by another poster so I was responding to both points of view. From a fan's perspective, I can't even imagine what it feel like to watch games when all you're hoping for a bunch of losses so you get high draft picks next year? Talk about depressing!

I'd just like someone to come out and back me up once and a while because I know that I can't be the only person that has some of these feelings about the Chiefs. Instead I've got to argue facts with Sean B who just wants someone to talk to him.

Crane - you're perpetuating. The more this site becomes the "SeanB and Crane Show," the more likely I'm out. Really.

Absolutely never said that, Double D. If you don't play to win, you get hurt or embarrassed. This is strictly a fan's mentality once his team has been mathematically eliminated. Now, playing spoiler is something different. That almost replicates a playoff atmosphere, so those games are important, especially in the division. Our last three games last year weren't like that, save maybe Tennessee. I can also see the case for closing out strong, like the Rams and Ravens did before winning it all. But you better REALLY be ready to win the next year or else all you did was save your front office a little dough on its first-rounder.

Double D is right. We should move on here. And I think we can all agree that Carl has had the last 15 years to win a playoff game and has failed. That's more important than any five-year plan. He's lucky to have a job, even if he is having a commendable offseason (other than FA).

Adam, from a fan's perspective, it's one thing to say, yeah, let's hope they lose so we get the high pick next year when you're mathematically eliminated this year. I don't have a problem with that unless that mentality somehow infects the team's mindset. What I expect is for the team to play like every game matters even if it doesn't and even though I may personally prefer a different outcome. In other words, the last thing I want to see happen is for this team to develop a losers mindset - for any reason.

That said, it is completely another thing, as a supposed fan, to say that you don't even want them to bother trying - before the season even starts! That is some real negative bullshit and homey don't play that.

So the last quote PV...when he specifically says "my five year plan"...

Doube D, I don't really care about it, but Sean B demanded proof about what I said...because he said it was "simply untrue". I claim otherwise and prove it, but its still not enough. Even when we find a quote from Carl joking about his 5 year plan 7 years later. I just get tired of Mr. Argumentative spewing nonsense, saying things are true and not true with no support, and no one calls him on it. Carl had a five year plan when he was hired and its "simply true".

Who effing cares whether CP had a 5 yr plan 20 years ago or whether he said he did or didn't say it? Move on. Seriously.

C'mon guys, Carl admitted that he had a five-year plan. I've been less hard on the King than most, and yet I'm still willing to admit that this five-year plan wasn't concocted out of thin air. And I'm especially not going to listen to what Bob Gretz says about it. The King pulls his strings.

As for winning now, yes, Double D, I want to win now. But when we have been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs I snap my fingers and saw awe shucks when we lose close meaningless games and end up with players like Glenn Dorsey. Guess that's just me, though. We could have always won out the last three meaningless contests and drafted Derrick Harvey or something.

The only time I desperately want to win when we are out of contention is if we can play spoiler to our AFC West foes.

Crane - none of the quotes you posted proved anything other than that you hate Carl Peterson...1st one - "joked", 2nd one "jokes", third one, Carl was referencing someone else talking about the 5-year plan.

wow, even when you get totally proved wrong and owned, you still argue like you are right. Carl said that in 89, whether you want to believe it or not.

I've already proved you wrong...again and again and again.

I'd like to get back to the point about winning now versus using this season to position yourself for picks next season. This is the NFL and if you make the cut, you damn well better immediately compete at that level and win without regard to how many years you've been in the league. These guys are given their millions for a reason; there is no excuse for expecting anything short of excellence.

Success in the NFL always depends on how well a team can marginalize its mistakes with its production. With youth comes better speed, more intensity and more mistakes. With experience you get better focus and smarter play but give up some speed and intensity. What that all means is that it is possible to win with either and/or both when the attitude, chemistry, and coaching are all in sync.

As I pointed out previously, last season's Chiefs were 9-5-2 at halftime. I find that to be a pretty stunning stat considering how they ended up. The primary reason they ended up 4-12 is because they lacked a running game. If their running game returns, as I believe it will, then understand that we're looking at a competitive team. And when I say competitive, I mean potentially championship caliber. Look around at this team and tell me that we don't have, not just a couple, but several playmakers capable of making it done at that level? Imagine if we add a couple more to that collection?

The elements that made this a 9-5-2 halftime team are still here and then some. The elements that allowed them to wind up a 4-12 team have been replaced by some guys that in all likelihood will perform better than their predessors. If the Chiefs play well enough to make into the playoffs this season, it means they got better as the season progressed and played particularly tough down the stretch. If they do that, then they absolutely have to be considered a contender and will indeed have earned their run at the ring.

I'll say it again, I see no reason why this team cannot and should not win now. I've been a Chiefs fan since the day they came to KC so don't try to play the youthful naivete card with me. It's not about unrealistic optimism either. It's called expectation.

OK man whatever, just find me the quote WHEN HE STARTED that has him stating that he has a 5-year-plan to win the Super Bowl. I've yet to see it, and I've got a great feeling that I won't. The quotes you provided are easily taken out of context.

Even if Peterson did actually make a statement about a 5-year-plan to win the Super Bowl (let's just pretend that he did for a second) I can pretty much guarantee you it was in a casual, non-serious, non-restrictive manner. I can tell you for a fact that he never laid out an actual 5 year plan.

Prove me wrong.

What was that you said? That's simply untrue...is what you said. Just in case you forgot. Its not that I don't respect your opinion, I don't find you credible when you say things like that, you can have your opinion, but don't debate the facts with me.

Apparently you didn't read too closely on So Far So Good's comments,
Latehit beat me to it but its right here buddy read it and weep.

Yes there was a five year plan and it can be found. A quick Google search for “Carl Peterson five year plan” of newspapers archives from the 1990s reveals the following quotes.

“I should have said, in retrospect, a five-year plan to get to the playoffs,” Peterson, 55, joked.
Kansas City Star Sep 6, 1998

Peterson jokes that as he enters his fourth year with the club, he is “about a year away” from his five-year plan to build a Super Bowl champion.
Wichita Eagle Sep 6, 1992

“I’ve taken a razzing about my five-year-plan,” Peterson said of the blueprint
Kansas City, Star Aug 25, 1996

Let's not get personal guys. That goes for everybody. Just want to say that before things go downhill.

And Bob Gretz is King Carl's puppet. So, I don't know if I trust his word or agree that he is a HIGHLY respected journalist. At the same time, I have never seen that quote. I have no clue if it does or doesn't exist.

Crane, last time I checked you STILL never found a Carl Peterson quote saying that he had a 5-year-plan. I want that quote if you're gonna keep running your mouth, and guess what? It's not gonna happen unless you make it up. Bob Gretz (a HIGHLY respected Chiefs journalist, unlike yourself) said himself that Carl Peterson never said he had a 5-year Super Bowl plan when he started here.

As for "no credibility", I know plenty of people on this very site that respect my opinion. Doesn't hurt my feelings much that you're just too ignorant to consider anybody else's point of view. How about you quit singling me out and then pretending that I'm attacking you? Let's have mature discussion, not this baby shit you've been throwing around, especially lately.

Anyone who wanted us to win that game against the Jets needs there head examined. That game would have cost us Glenn Dorsey. Sometimes fandom needs to have some practicality to it. Even with heart. I've had enough of 9-7/10-6 get our asses whipped in the playoffs. I want a Super Bowl run. Big picture, people, big picture.

I understand confidence, and I understand rooting for us to win until we are mathematically out of the playoffs. Once we have been eliminated, however, it's a different story.

No more beating the dead horse. Just remember the analogy of the 5-6 and the 10, and then ask yourself which one you'd like to take home, no matter how much work or time it takes.

I'm curious to see what you guys are going to have to say when you see this makeshift Oline in action...LJ throwing fits because there's no holes and Brodie getting sacked. Don't mistake me I want them to do well, but IMHO...its gonna be ugly. Its gonna be so funny to see what you are saying then. I love my Chiefs thru thick and thin but its gonna be hilarious for me and Adam and a few other people on this site who are actually realists to sit back and gleefully smirk while we blare "I told ya so" on the PA.

er...5 yr plan statement

I'm not rooting for a loss people! I too want the Chiefs to have some success this year in player development...this means starting rookies and making them feel the pain of losing and thrill of winnning some games, while winning the games we should. We aren't going to be 11-5 or 10-6, if you guys think that you're total homers, and I'll bet each of you a dub that we ain't going 11-5. I'm just saying I'd rather see us take our lumps with young players just one more year...and if we are 5-5 at the 10 game mark, not break my heart again just to finish 9-7...middle of the road...same ol Chiefs man we almost had 'em. When I say I don't want us to have a shot, I mean I don't want us to smell the playoffs...and not quite make it, or back in like we did against Jacksonville. We do that and we pick in the late 20's not the mid teens next year where you guys seem to think we can pull another rabbit out of our hat in the draft.

SBC keep my name out of your mouth...you've lost any credibility you might have had witht the whole "its simply untrue" about the Carl p 56 year plan statement. You have no clue what you are talking about, ever.

Adam, it's one thing to root for a loss when the team is out of playoff contention, lost the last 5 or 6 games, and the offseason can't come fast enough. It's another thing to hope for a failure of a season before that season even starts. Besides, this team is full of young guys already. We need them to gain confidence and swagger, and the best way to do that is to compete, be in games late, and win.

Herm has said that if the line performs poorly in the preseason that he would possibly look to free agency to fix it.

We have beat the "rooting for a loss" thing to death already, so I won't get into it.

As far as the AP link above from CMF: That's from 2007 man. I know, it seems like this is deja vu. Here's the only thing I've seen on it, from the Red Zone:

"Right tackle Damion McIntosh, who spent the morning punching linebacker Pat Thomas and having his right leg wrapped in tape and an Ace bandage, also didn't practice Wednesday afternoon. The Chiefs didn't release the specifics of McIntosh's injury, but he was able to walk on it with only a slight limp."

Personally, if DMac goes down? Fine by me. I hope he falls on Jones and takes him out while he's at it. In this season of learning I'd rather see long term solutions playing the right side. Besides, I've heard that both of them have been unimpressive so far. Let some of the young bucks have a shot.

My biggest fear is that those two will play horribly throughout the preseason. We've seen Herm's penchant for change during the season. He's already said that he wants to find the starters and stick with them.

If those two suck, they're going to suck all season long unless one (or both) goes down. At that point their replacements may have more skill, but not the time to gel with the rest of the first unit, which means bootleg and runs to the left every play!

Arg.

in hindsight the j e t s loss WAS probably better in the long run BUT when game was on i sure as hell rooted for the W

Sure, but we don't play the games, so we can also look out for our long-term best interests. I do think us losing that Jets game will eventually be huge. Probably the difference between Dorsey and Gholsten, which would be substantial. But high picks are no guarantee of winning, that is correct, It certainly gives you a better chance, though.

i too been here almost 30 years i can KINDA see that point but the shortsightedness was on the part of upper mgmt. not with the players who won or lost the games. like someone said already you can build teams with mid 1st picks. look at the pats besides this year when was the last time theyt had a top 10 pick. they've done pretty good by it. maybe they had high picks years ago (bledsoe) but those guys have not contributed to their success in the past few years

You don't have to necessarily root for that outcome either. Even if you root the other way, there is nothing wrong with being relieved when they don't screw up their draft by winning a meaningless game. I've been a Chiefs fan for almost 30 years now, and I think the longer you are with the team and the older you get the more you understand that shortsightedness is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Last year, when we were out of the playoffs, I wanted us to lose. Especially to the Jets. Losing that meaningless game is the reason we have Glenn Dorsey. If you're a fan, sometimes you can root for your team's best interest instead of instant gratification.

Put it this way. It's the difference between taking home a 5-6 from some dive bar and doing the dating legwork to land a 10.

You think Celtics fans aren't glad they tanked two years ago and got the draft picks needed to bring in Ray Allen and K.G.? The ultimate goal is a title, and if it takes another 4-12 season to get one instead of another 10-6 season then, yeah, I agree with Crane.

i've been a chiefs fan for as long as i can remember,me and my dad went to games together in the early 80's(and ever since) I'VE NEVER WANTED THEM TO LOSE. NEVER.
Istill think we're 10-6 yhis year also and if things go right win the division

Yeah, me and Crane have already been down this road about how a Chiefs fan could possibly want the Chiefs to lose just for a high draft pick. I personally don't understand it, but maybe it's just because I don't live in Detroit.

I always want us to win. Remember, LJ, Tony G, Derrick Johnson, Tamba Hali, and Dwayne Bowe were all mid-late round picks.

Maybe it's time to give Richardson, Stallings or Herb Taylor a real shot at the starting job? Herb sure looked great in OTA's.

I saw that. From what I've read, he's fine. McIntosh sure has been disappointing since joining us, though. He's looked like crap in camp, and now he's getting in fights and getting hurt. C'mon, Big Dame, get it together.

MacIntosh hurt today. Chris over on AP is reporting Damion went down this morning and the MRI is negative.

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2007/8/7/8574/79952

I want them to play well and win close games. I want them to find out they're better than they thought. I want them to blow out teams when they are markedly more talented. I want them to make some mistakes that put them behind the eight ball early with against a great team that should beat them, and then find something deep down inside they call on to pull that one out.

What I dont want is a machavellian maneuver to 'gain experience' and yet hold them back just so we can get a "higher draft position". Talk about playing for a tie! The game deserves better from those who play it than that kind of crap. If the coaches and mgmt were to pull that kind of crap on the players, the players would lose all respect for the organization.

I cannot believe a real Chiefs fan even said "I don’t want the Chiefs to have a shot this year"!!!

What utter nonsense and despicable thinking!

The Hunt family will never stand for that kind of operation, and neither will the true fans of the KC Chiefs.

Yeah, I meant to say best rookie reciever, but I sometimes get in such a flurry of typing that I leave a word out here or there.

And Al Gore was a QB in his college days, so he probably has a decent grasp on the game. I wasn't so much a fan of "An Inconvenient Truth," but I'll avoid getting political here. I will say that virtually anyone would be a more competant coach than Norv.