OK Addicts, time to go through the offense (here’s the defense, in case you missed it). Lets’ review the ground rules first:
1] Only time spent in a Chiefs‘ uniform counts. What a player did before he played for the Chiefs (see Roaf, Wille) or after (see Smith, Neil) is not a part of my evaluation.
2] Football styles change over the years. So, using stats to measure worth is not the best form evaluation. I use ‘dominance in your era’ as my criteria. It is, by definition, a soft form of analysis. Therefore, it is open to a lot of discussion.
3] Although players do get faster and stronger, I try to balance that by sticking to my dominance in your era formula.
4] Current players are eligible, however no projections of future performance are allowed. This is a ‘right now’ evaluation. So, sorry D-Bowe, you will not be making the list.
Quarterback: Len Dawson
No surprise here. Lenny won a SB and easily had the best Chief QB career.
Honorable Mention: Trent Green, Bill Kenney, Steve Deberg
Running Back: Priest Holmes
Priest had a great Chiefs career setting many Chief records along the way. He was a very smart runner who maximized his athletic talent.
Honorable Mention: Curtis McClinton, Joe Delaney, Ed Podalak, Abner Haynes, Christian Okoye
Fullback: Tony Richardson
A great story for developing players in the NFL. We stole him off of the Cowboys’ practice squad and he developed into a pro bowl FB.
Honorable Mention: Kimble Anders
Wide Receivers:
Otis Taylor. Otis is another Chief who I feel belongs in the HOF. Like many of his Chief teammates, he was way ahead of his time in terms of size/speed.
Carlos Carson. A speedster who learned how to run routes. He had a nice career including three 1000+ receiving yard years and a Pro Bowl.
Honorable Mention: JT Smith, Stephone Paige, Henry Marshall, Chris Burford
Tight End: Tony Gonzalez
What can I say about Tony? He should be a first ballot Hall of Famer and will own many NFL records when he hangs up his spikes.
Honorable Mention: Fred Arbanas, and another favorite of mine, Walter White
Offensive Tackles:
Jim Tyrer. A 7-time AFL All-Star selection who was the best OT of his era.
Jon Alt. Two pro bowls in a 13 year career. He was an anchor for some good Chief lines.
Honorable Mention: Willie Roaf
Offensive Guards:
Will Shields. He started partway through his rookie year and was a stellar player for many years. Twelve Pro Bowls says it all. He is another HOF candidate.
Ed Budde. A five time AFL All-Star selection who was a big part of the great Chief teams of the 60’s.
Honorable Mention: Dave Szott, Brian Waters
Center: Jack Rudnay
Rudney was more of a mobile center than a road grader. He was a four time Pro Bowler.
Honorable Mention: Tim Grunhard, Casey Wiegmann, EJ Holub
Kicker: Jan Stenerud
Still the only pure kicker in the HOF and one of the early soccer style kickers. He was a six time Pro Bowl selection.
Honorable Mention: Nick Lowery, Tommy Brooker
Return Specialist: Dante Hall
The X-Factor was special to watch and a threat to score anytime he returned a punt or kick.
Honorable Mention: Tamarick Vanover, Noland Smith, JT Smith
Summary:
Throughout the years, the Chiefs have had some good offenses. The Super Bowl era Chiefs are well-represented as are the Martyball Chiefs and the Vermeil Chiefs. I had the hardest time with the WR and RB positions. The WR position, after Otis Taylor, is full of good players, but no one that really stands out as great. Priest finally gave us a dominant runner. Behind him is another group of very good, but not great players.
Current players to watch:
Brian Waters has a shot to supplant Ed Budde at Guard. D-Bowe looked very good his rookie season, so he bears watching. LJ certainly has a chance to end the logjam at RB and even take over the top spot from Priest. Tony G is obviously already there, but Fred Arbanas was an excellent tight end in his own right.
OK Addicts, have at it. Anyone want to make a case for Willie Roaf being above Jim Tyrer and Jon Alt? Should LJ be on the honorable mention list? Any surprises? Who doesn’t belong? Did I miss anyone?
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i dont think we can through LJ up there just yet maybe a few more good years and definately have to see how he rebounds this year, christian okoye was a man beast now, i loved watchin that man run guys over,steppin on people if he had to and i can see that kinda power in LJ, i remember watchin CO in college and then kc got him i was lovin it
Offensive lineman are hard to quantify, however, to assess the value of Willie Roaf, I think you only have to look at LJ’s stats when Willie was there, versus when he wasn’t.
Good list,though. Just to see names like Dawson, Taylor, Tyrer, Budde…really takes me back. Good, good memories.
Im sorry but I have to put Roaf ahead of Alt on this list, 11 pro bowls and how many 1,000 yard backs behind the lines he always anchored? The man was amazing. Alt was good but never will have the credentials Roaf does.
Shawn:
I understand where you are coming from. However, my ground rules were that only time spent in a Chief’s uniform counted.
I think LJ deserves to be on the honorable mentions list. He holds Chiefs RB records, including most yards in a game and in a season (both of which he broke twice).
@Ralph Couey: As far as LJ’s stats with and without Willie Roaf alone, it’s been measured. In the 2005 season, when he rushed for 1750 yards in only nine starts and had 9 straight 100 yard games, he avered 151 yards per game with Roaf playing. Without Roaf, he averaged 150 yards per game. Just FYI.
God it’s good to see someone else show EJ Holub some respect… and I rank him above Rudnay because he had SEVEN knee surguries in the era before the ’scope, and never missed a start.
NFL Films did a special on him for ABC back in the days before ESPN, and when they gave a close-up of his knees, his legs were so crooked it was hard to believe he could even walk, much less anchor the line on a Superbowl team – twice.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the way Rudnay and Grunhard played the game, and their careers honored and extended a long tradition of great centers in KC – but I still think EJ is the gold standard. He was a man’s man in the league when the league was a whole lot tougher than it is today.
Not having L.J. on this list is a traveshamockery. I will be back when I have more time to vouch for my guy. Believe that!
Adam:
You do that. While you are at it, can you drop a definition for traveshamockery??? Thanks!
Curt:
Thanks for vouching for Holub. He is one of only two players to make the list twice. It is nice to see other folks like you and Ralph that have some good words for the Super Bowl era Chiefs.
@SEANBCOOL
Thanks for the stats. Some things escape me way out here in Pennsylvania, but I seem to remember this past season Leonard talking about how LJ’s struggles were related to the absence of Big Willie. But, I could be wrong. After all, I’m old enough to have been in the Huddle Club!
Yeah, end zone seats at Old Municipal for a BUCK!!!
I hope this drought doesn’t last as long as the last one did…
I know he didn’t play here very long, but Marcus Allen was cash money inside the ten yard line.
Mike:
Marcus tempted me, big time. He was the best short yardage back I saw play for us. He could find a yard or two when the play looked totally shut down. If my premise was building a team to play, rather than a all-time Chief team, I would definately take Marcus as a 3rd down, short yardage back.
this is off kffl
Vikings | Allen expects to go to Super Bowl
Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:30:25 -0700
Judd Zulgad, of the Minneapolis Star Tribune, reports Minnesota Vikings DL Jared Allen said he expects the team to go to the Super Bowl in 2008.
jared allen already thinks he’s bigger than he really is
sorry, alil off topic, i seen that and had to show you guys
i know he cant be on the list yet, but D-Bo will be #2 behind Otis Taylor some day….
Well, I’d say they have a solid shot at going to the SB this year. Especially if T. Jackson shows ANY improvement at all, and if Purple Jesus/Chester Taylor keep running wild on opponents. If they have any kind of CB/WR help this year, it’s totally possible. What killed them last year was the pass in general. They couldn’t defend it, and they couldn’t pass very well on offense. If they get the CB help-with JA also providing passrush- they’ll have a dominating D, a powerful run game.. They could be the 2000 Ravens all over again. If they get some WR help this year, then their D won’t be on the field all day long (much like ours was last year!) and teams won’t be able to shred the tired defenders apart like they were. They play in a weak conference, and Favre just retired, making their job there easier as well. It could very well happen. I would love for the Chiefs to meet the Vikings in the SB one of these years, and have an Albert/Waters pancake fest, courtesy Jared Allen.
Let me help Adam out… I believe he is wordsmithing travesty, sham, and mockery…which loosely translated means “bullshit”.
what about marcus allen, he at least should of been an honorable mention
@Ralph:
Yeah, I’m not even sure why I remembered that particular statistic. I’m full of useless shit like that I guess. But yes, even though I’m sure LJ misses Roaf, I don’t believe the tackle’s retirement alone has affected his stats THAT dramatically. I’d say it’s more due to the deterioration of the O-line as a whole coupled with the exodus of Al Saunders and the deficiency of the passing game. I guess people like to zero in on one thing and dramatize it.
ACrane:
Make your case for Marcus. Was he better in a Chief’s uni than the guys? Who would you drop from the list and why?
Merlin -
Ed Fumblelak ranks ahead of Mike Garrett – how is that even possible? Also, I think Allen belongs on the HM list simply because he was always such a sure thing in short yardage situations. Pretty sure that Jan Stenerud was THE original soccer-style kicker. Can’t think of anyone who kicked like that before he arrived on the scene – now everybody kicks that way.
What about Andre Rison for WR honorable mention…he was incredible for a few seasons here. Keith Cash honorable mention for TE?? Okoye should be right behind Priest (maybe not right behind but 2nd for sure). Joe Montana took the Chiefs to the AFC Championship game…that has to count for something.
Donnell Bennett has to be up there for one of the greatest running backs in this franchises history. period.
Just kidding about the Bennett thing. had to.
merlinnj:
I forgot about EJ being a two-way starter early in his career (pre Willie Lanier!) but he was tremendous on both sides of the ball. Thsnka for the reminder!
Tony G is hands down the greatest receiving tight end in Chiefs history, arguably in the NFL, but how about some love for his partner in crime Jason Dunn. He couldn’t catch the ball but whenever he went in the game everyone knew the Chiefs would run…and teams still couldn’t stop Priest, Tony Richardson or Larry from galloping all over the field. You could make an argument that he was the most dominating blocking tight end in the NFL from 2000-2006.
dont forget about
Marcus allen i loved him in the chiefs uniform and he retired as a chief.
Montana should have some mention we had a bad ass team just missed the mark by means of a field goal kicker who should never have been in the nfl.
DD:
Let’s get this out of the way up front. I don’t like Ed Podolak. I don’t know why. I always felt he was overrated. However, he did play 9 years with the Chiefs and was the leading rusher when he retired. Mike Garrett only played 5 years for us. I like him, but I don’t think he was as good but he was on my old Chief list and I dropped him for Priest. Oh, just a side note, Mike Garrett fumbled more times in his 9 year career (45) than Ed Podolak did in his 9 year career (42). If you added Mike Garrett would you drop Ed Podolak? Drop someone else? I think I already have too many backs in the honorable mention category. I would love for LJ to have a couple more good seasons so I can just list him, Priest, Okoye and maybe one more. There were a ton of guys I considered including LJ, Mike Garrett, Marcus Allen, Barry Word, Greg Page and Ted McKnight that I felt were under the guys I put on the list.
merlinnj, LJ really has to be up there. It doesn’t make sense for him not to. He’s done more in 2 years in a Chiefs uniform than most of the guys you have on the list instead of him.
Sean:
Which running backs has LJ done more than in 2 years? I grant you that LJ is close to being on the list, but who does he supplant?
Merlin,
I think you’re just looking for someone to give you some legitimate reasons for taking Podolak off the list. I’ll give it my best shot.
While a Chief, Garrett was one of the greatest in his day. To begin with, he owns the honor of being the 4th highest leading rusher in a career that only spanned 4+ years here. In those 4 years, he averaged over 1100 yds per season. What’s more, he was the feature back in 2 Super Bowls, and not only does he have the ring, but he actually earned it a deal-dealing TD in SB IV. He was also far more exciting than Podolak to watch because even though he was relatively small guy, once he punched the hole, he a phenomenal ability start shake linebackers and the secondary. His legs never stopped churning and he was rarely tackled by just one guy.
As for fumbles, stick to your own rules about not using stats from other teams. Garrett averaged somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 fumbles a season while a Chief. He had more problems hanging onto the ball after he became a Charger and that’s whats skews his career stats in that dept. Podolak, on the other hand, owns the NFL record for most fumbles (10) in a single season – need I say more???
Podolak, while admittedly the 2nd highest rusher in team history, arrived at his numbers over a span of basically 8 years as a Chief. Even if you exclude his 1st season (and overlooking the fact that Garrett had nearly 1000 yds his rookie year!), Podolak only averaged a little over 850 yds per season. No comparison!! As I recall, Fumblelak began his career with the Chiefs primarily as a RS – thus the nickname – and when he started carrying the ball for real, he continued to fumble – a lot. I’ll admit he eventually turned into a pretty decent (dare I say “journeyman”) back but he (and we fans) went through a lot of pain to get there.
Convinced yet???
*deal-sealing*
Correction on Fumblelak stats – he led the NFL for most fumbles only for the 1972 season – but still, seriously.
DD:
I do love these kinds of discussions! Oh, I would love to dump Podolak. However, I can’t do it. You do make some good points though. Let me clarify some things though.
I never said not to use stats. I just said they were not the best form of evaluation. I use them to a degree, but they are not absolutes in my book.
OK, let’s go through your ‘deal-sealing’ points
1] While a Chief, Garrett was one of the greatest in his day.
He had 3 good years as a Chief. As I said, I like him and he was the guy I dropped off the list. He is that close.
2] he averaged over 1100 yds per season.
True, but let’s be clear that you are combining rushing and receiving yardage here. Podolak wasn’t much of a receiving threat.
3] He was also far more exciting than Podolak to watch because even though he was relatively small guy, once he punched the hole, he a phenomenal ability start shake linebackers and the secondary. His legs never stopped churning and he was rarely tackled by just one guy.
All true, then again, this isn’t the ‘most exciting list’.
4] Garrett averaged somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 fumbles a season while a Chief. He had more problems hanging onto the ball after he became a Charger and that’s whats skews his career stats in that dept. Podolak, on the other hand, owns the NFL record for most fumbles (10) in a single season – need I say more???
Yes, because when you say player A is better because player B fumbles too much, you should check and make sure Player B fumbles alot more than Player A.
5] Podolak, while admittedly the 2nd highest rusher in team history, arrived at his numbers over a span of basically 8 years as a Chief
Exactly, and this is where I run into problems. How do I keep him off the list?
Basically, you are saying that Garrett was a more productive back than Podolak. I do think these players are close, but I gave the edge to Podolak due to longevity in a Chief uniform and his place on the all-time rushing list. I am really hoping LJ can make this argument irrelevant. My last point is that Podolak compiled his stats with by and large mediocre Chief teams while Garrett played for the elite Chief teams. Garrett had a much better O-line opening holes for him. Garrett’s 4 full years as Chief, his teams went 34-12-1. Podolak’s 8 years as a Chief RB resulted in a 49-49-2 record. We can get into a chicken and egg argument, but I don’t think that those records are all Podolak’s fault. He was a good RB on mediocre Chief teams. For me, he just noses out another good RB on some great Chief teams.
merlinnj:
Are you joking?
What other Chiefs running back has rushed for 3500+ yards and 30-something touchdowns over a two year period, not to mention breaking the single season and single game rushing records twice. He dominates the Chiefs running back history books, and he’s not even done yet.
I think not putting him as even an honorable mention just makes you an old fogey, and in denial.
Merlin,
It seems to me that your deciding factor between Podolak and Garrett hinges not an actual performance but on longevity as a Chief. Delaney gets mention for, hmm, let me see . . . tragedy points???
One of the main reasons why the Chiefs of “that” era were an elite team is because Mike Garrett was in the backfield. Here’s a few more stats (Chiefs-only) which bear that out:
Pro Bowls:
Garrett – 2
Podolak – Bupkis
1st team All-Pro:
Garrett – 1
Podolak – goose egg
Yds per carry rankings:
Garrett (AFL) – 1966 1st, 1967 3rd, 1969 7th
Podolak (NFL) – 1970 5th
DD:
Yes, I think dying jumping in to save two drowning kids when you can’t swim yourself earns you a pass on the longevity issue.
I know Garrett is a good back. He also had an excellent O-line to work with, unlike Podolak. Deciding between the two is close, I grant you. I do respect other points of view. At least you aren’t seriously trying to hand me Keith Cash for TE.
DD:
Btw, if you did your own list and put Garrett on it and left Podolak off, I would not be able to say you are completely wrong. That is what makes things like this fun. Seriously though, just how many backs can I put in the honorable mention list? I think I have too many as it is.
I’m a bit young, so I don’t remember hearing much about any of these wide receivers up there.. I’d have to seriously make a case for Eddie Kennison as at least an honorable mention.
First off, he was here for 7 years, but his first year, we got him mid-season and he only logged 5 games, and this last year, only played in 8 (but wasn’t a factor basically at all.) So 5+ solid years of football. He had over 5,200 receiving yards for us, 25 touchdowns, but that’s not what I remember about Eddie Kennison. The first of the two things that jumped out to me was the fact that he stepped his game up tremendously versus divisional opponents, especially the Broncos. Sundays versus the Donkeys you just knew Eddie was getting at least 100 yards. The other thing that I also think Eddie was Very underrated for, was his ability to convert first downs. In each of the 5 seasons where he played at least 14 games, he had at least 41 1st down conversions. Most of those were when we had our Top-of-the-NFL offense, and a big part of that was thanks to him. He simply moved the chains. He usually notched somewhere in the 60’s in receptions each year, and to have 40+ of those getting us first downs… that’s fairly impressive. I wish he things would have ended better for him, but I still think he was HUGE to our offense in the Vermiel Era.
I’d also have to agree that LJ belongs on this list. He’s beasted himself into our record books without playing for that long. While one day I think he will be at the top of the hill among our RB’s, I think for now an honorable mention is the best way to go.
Yeah I’ve gotta agree with Kennison too come to think of it. He retired from the Broncos just to come be a Chief, and that’s enough in my book. Not to mention he was our starter throughout Dick Vermeil’s Flying Circus.
Otis Taylor? More like Otis Nixon….hmmm?