Cut/Trade/Release Patrick Surtain

Dude, don't get me wrong. Andre Johnson is a really good receiver. I'd just about squirt my shorts if the Chiefs were to sign him (it would immediately solve 2 glaring problems: #2 receiver and return man. And FYI, I think Andre is a Top 5 kick returner).

But I don't think the fact that Brackenridge stripped Johnson is any reason to go all gaga over him. Benny Sapp picked off Brett Favre last season, and I felt like he played hard. Does that mean we should have kept him?

Again, don't get me wrong. Tyron is a surprising and interesting young talent at CB. I just have concerns about him keeping his head in the game. I don't want a guy who will play hard for the first 2 downs and then fuck up at a crucial moment (remember Eric Warfield?). However, if he can overcome that one issue, I can easily see a future cornerback tandem of Flowers and Brackenridge.

But on topic, don't count out Surtain yet. I don't feel like there is enough veteran presence on the team anymore, and Surtain can certainly stick around as a mentor for our young DBs for a couple of years, similar to Greg Wesley if he stays.

You're really going to put players like Kevin Curtis alongside Andre Johnson? And to be fair, look at all the teams' offenses, and look at what Andre Johnson has had to work with. His quarterback being completely mauled (Texans are one of, if not THE worst in the nfl in sacks allowed since they've entered the league), their QB situation has been in flux, with Carr never living up to the hype (who can blame him behind that line?) the coaching carousel is ridiculous, their running game, despite lasts years 'ok' performance, has been lackluster at best, and he's had really no other TE's or WR's to help him, until Owen Daniels came along. I agree with some of your top 10, and most of the top 20, but even guys like Fitzgerald and Bolden feed off eachother, along with Johnson (lost this year in free agency) and a TE by the name of Leonard Pope. Not to mention Donte Stallworth, and who he played alongside.. They undoubtedly get easier matchups than Andre Johnson on any given play, yet the man still performs, and performs well. As a number 1 receiver, he's near the top of the league, age limit or not. Check his stats; they speak for themselves.

one thing you are forgetting about the whole palmer/smith comparisons is the fact that smith had the BIG question marks BEFORE he was drafted(small hands,system guy...etc.) which palmer did not have, but i agree that surtain would help out this year

If we cut Surtain we are basically throwing a rookie or 2nd year player out there in his spot. Personally, I think a player develops better when he has time to learn from a veteran who has been around. While I recognize that QB and CB are vastly different positions I'd like to compare Carson Palmer (Bengals) to Alex Smith (49ers). Both of these players were top picks and Smith unlike Palmer was thrown directly into the fire. Smith struggled and he continues to struggle while he undergoes his growing pains. Palmer got rid of his growing pains in practice and in the film room his first year when he sat behind John Kitna. I recognize there are many exceptions to the rule like Peyton Manning but I still think keeping Surtain if not for the sole purpose of mentoring our young CB's is the right move. It allows the Chiefs to develop their young CB's (Flowers, Brackenridge, Carr, Morgan, and Barksdale) in practice and on the playing field without putting an enormous amount of pressure on them.

Intresting topic, after looking at all the responses I dont think any of us really know which way would be a godo way to go with Surtain without us knowing what goes on a practice/behind closed doors. I never played above middle school because Soccer season was at the same time and I went to Shawnee Heights where our soccer team could have beaten our football team at football. I dont know how much development is based on coaching as opposed to veteran leadership and adivse, good topic though, some intresting points.

@ xxxlp:

Since you won't let it go, here is a list (in no particular order) of 19 receivers under the age of 30 (which is a ridiculous stipulation, seeing as it excludes 30 year olds like Chad Johnson and T.J. Houshmanzadeh) who I believe are AS GOOD or BETTER than Andre Johnson.

1. Drew Bennett
2. Bernard Berrian
3. Anquan Boldin
4. Dwayne Bowe
5. Marques Colston
6. Kevin Kurtis
7. Braylon Edwards
8. Larry Fitzgerald
9. Joey Galloway
10. Santonio Holmes
11. Greg Jennings
12. Donte Stallworth
13. Steve Smith
14. Reggie Wayne
15. Javon Walker
16. Wes Welker
17. Roddy White
18. Roy Williams
19. Brandon Marshall

So if it will make you happy I will include Andre Johnson in my Top 20 WRs between 20-29 years old.

And I suppose Tyron Brackenridge WOULD be an invaluable situational player. Herm can send him in when we need to get the ball back and the opposing team has a pretty good WR under 30.

Anybody know when training camp starts?

Heard something about a dislocated jaw, but who knows for sure. And if Andre Johnson isn't a top 10 receiver in the 20-29 age group (which doesn't include 30+ year old guys like TO, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison) then I dunno who would be in his place. Yeah T-Brack had some blunders, but mostly on special teams, when he was on the field as an extra corner, on 3rd downs, I don't remember seeing him being blatently bad. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that I saw it if it did, but I have hope for him. He did have a torn bicep and was still playing, I give him his props for that alone. He's a tough kid, and I think if nothing else, he'll be our nickel whenever Pat is cut/traded/goes down with injury.

Who knows if Tyron Brackenridge will even be able to play this year. I read that he was in a bar fight and had to have surgery. Don't know any details as of yet.

Well hell, I can't remember the exact situations nor find them for the life of me. I just specifically remember being very frustrated at him during a couple of special teams plays.

Like I said though, maybe I'm being too hard on him. He DOES appear to be gifted and talented, or has at least shown flashes.

But still, let's not be too quick to anoint him over a couple of big plays. Once he proves that he is a consistently valuable talent, I'll be satisfied with our CB situation. Especially is Brandon Flowers is as good as I hope.

And while I wouldn't quite consider Andre Johnson a top 10 receiver, he does average less than 1 fumble a year. So kudos to Tyron for that.

Seanbcool, what exactly were some bone-headed, non-rookie mistakes that Tyron made? I saw several, scratch that, many typical, everyday, 'the game is so fast' 'getting adjusted to the NFL' kind of mistakes.. I saw alot of positives too.. The one that sticks out in my mind was from game one, versus the Texans. Stripped Andre Johnson for a fumble. Andre Johnson is not a guy with butter fingers, and he doesn't relinquish that ball easily.. Tyron had a torn bicep, and still was able to snatch it. I don't think anyone would argue that Andre is at least a top 15 WR, possibly top 10, when you factor age into the equation. He was a rookie, yes, but things looked very promising indeed. He's my sleeper candidate to get into the starting lineup by year's end. Especially if one of our rookie CB's doesn't 'wow' this year, and if Pat Surtain does fall back to the nickel.

surtain is geting old yes might be loseing a step yes but you got to look at why he was not that good last year it b/c ever one was going to law side b/c thy new he was to old to do shit and he did what he could when it was on his side keep him we might need him latter hope not but we might

I doubt anyone would give us anything for Surtain or Wesley at this point, neither is likely to start other than Surtain as a Chief. I think Wesley is a much more likely option to be cut with the addition of Morgan, and McGraw making a perfect fourth safety, so teams will just wait for that. We don't have the depth to cut Surtain, an injury to Flowers, Carr, or Brack, and we'd be really sorry he's gone. The only way he is gone is if two of the other guys step up in a huge way.

Cispdaddy:

Pretty sure Jimmy Wilkerson, DE, has already signed elsewhere. Depth lacking @ DE? B. Johnston, DE, needs to be a pleasant surprise for pick 210 to play this role in 2008.

Maybe we will trade Wesley for a mid to late round 2009 pick, since he wants out. He can still play.

Solid foundation and by the end of the year I think McBride, Williams, Brackenridge, Carr, and Morgan will all be seing significant PT if not starting.

PROJECTED STARTING LINE UP NEXT YEAR ON D:
RE = Tamba Hali
DT = Glenn Dorsey (oak tree legs)R
DT = Tank Tyler
LE = Alphonso Boone
ROLB = Derrick Johnson
MLB = Napolean Harris
LOLB = Donnie Edwards
CB = Pat Surtain
CB = Brandon Flowers R
SS = Bernard Pollard
FS = Jarad Page

SIGNIFICANT RESERVES:
DT = Ron Edwards, Turk McBride
DE = Turk McBride, Jimmy Wilkerson
LB = Demorrio Williams (possible starter)
OLB = Nate Harris, Mickey Pimentel
CB = Tyron Brackenridge, Brandon Carr R, Rashad Barksdale
S = DaJuan Morgan R, Greg Wesley

I like Patrick Surtain, but I feel like he's relatively expendable.

As for Tyron Brackenridge, I'm not impressed. It seemed like every time I turned around last season Tyron was making some boneheaded, costly mistake. Not just the typical rookie mistakes either. Stupid shit. The kind of crap that will make you pull your hair out.

Perhaps I'm being too hard on him. I guess we'll see this year.

Totally unrelated: read Pat Kirwan's aritcle @ NFL.com about "Pony" or "Rocket" 2-back, no FB backfields, think about LJ and Jamaal Charles in the backfield at the same time and smile!

Apparently so, based also on Arrowhead Pride, which I saw after above comment.

brackenridge was in sugery for jaw issue after being punched at club envy last night supposedly unprovoked, while out with other players thats what ive heard

Did anyone hear about T. Brackenridge getting injured in an "altercation" at a nightclub last night or did I just imagine this? Only caught the tail-end of some comments on the radio this afternoon.

DBs are like RBs in that you can never have too many. Might be a year too soon, but a provocative thought, Jason.

I'm with the majority here. I definitely think keeping him is the right idea.

im totally on the fence on this one. i think if we plan on using him as a nickel back then we should try to restructure that whopper of a contract, but i also think he would be a huge asset to mentor and play if some of the youngans dont pan out. SO like i said im totally on the fence

True. I'd keep him for another year. I agree that the young guys need experience, but what better teacher than Surtain? The young guys can be rotated in throughout the season.

Besides, Surtain wasn't great by any means last year, but he sure was a hell of a lot better than Law. He's still got a little to offer. Look how they always attacked Law (both in the run and pass) and seemed to shy away from Surtain.

Jeremy, an interesting thought. I think I heard somewhere, however, that the Chiefs would like to see Surtain move over to the nickel back role. I'm pretty comfortable with that. I'm all for a rebuild, but part of the rebuild process is giving the team confidence that they're getting better, and if all our corners end up being disasters, we don't walk into 2009 with a whole lot of confidence.

Moving Surtain to the nickel gives our young corners a chance to blossom without interfering. If they're complete disasters, we can move Surtain to #1 or #2 and maybe build confidence in the rest of the defense. Besides, if Surtain flourishes in 2008 at nickel back, he could potentially play the position effectively for another few years, so maybe there's value in restructuring his contract and keeping him at the nickel position for a few more years.

I agree. Keep Surtain to be an example for the youngblood. We might be able to squeek out a 6th or 7th rounder for him, but that isnt worth it.

Ken, I agree whole heartedly. He's worth it just for the veteran leadership he brings on defense. We have ~6 veterans on defense (which is exciting in rebuilding mode). Donnie Edwards and Nap fill up the LB core. Ron Edwards and Boone are our d-line veterans. Greg Wesley and Pat Surtain are our secondary veterans. I think it's a good thing to have 2 in the rotations for each area. They may not be as fast, but they'll probably be able to make the better reads/decisions in game, and I think if we want to go 8-8 (Like I think is legitimately possible), we won't only want the really quick/young guys. The in game experience is invaluable.

I think Herm may like the idea of having a veteran around if only for his leadership abilities and lockerroom presence.

I went to the game in San Diego last season, the one where Tyron scored, and I sat right next to his whole family and his girl (who was kind enough to share a smuggled in vodka arrowhead bottle with my date). They are from Riverside. I'm starting to wonder if you're advocating this on their behalf (well, not seriously). Anyhow, I think Surtain might still have a roll to play in helping the young CBs we have adjust to the NFL. And considering how much cap room we have, I don't think we need to clear anymore space. We might actually have problems meeting the requirement to be within 15% of the cap limit if we did cut him.

Talking tradewise, what do you think his value in a 2009 pick would amount to?