Agree To Disagree: Hall And Long
While I thoroughly enjoyed the last two posts, I have to disagree with both Steven and Zach on these two issues. I respect their opinion as much, if not more, than any Chiefs fans or pundits out there. This time around, however, we’re going to have to agree to disagree.
- Exhibit A: DeAngelo Hall
Basically every top-caliber free agent cornerback has been tagged. The only exceptions are Asante Samuel–who is in line for Nate Clements money–and Drayton Florence. Do you think the Chargers really want to let another talented player get in bed with the enemy? No, neither do I. Then you look at this NFL Draft’s cornerback class. Sure, there are few standouts and hidden gems, but overall it is the worst class of CBs we’ve seen in years.
Now look at DeAngelo Hall. Given that respected vets like Algee Crumpler, Lawyer Milloy and Warrick Dunn also had issues with Bobby Petrino, I think it’s hard to pin the situation down there in the ATL on D-Hall. In fact, the franchise is still running vets out of town, eager to rebuild and desperate for scapegoats. The problem with the Atlanta Falcons was never DeAngelo Hall; the problem in the ATL has been Michael Vick, Rich McKay and Bobby Petrino. Any franchise that trades a quarterback like Matt Schaub during the Vick situation is completely effed.
I think we can get Hall for our second rounder and a future third or fourth. Keep in mind that our second-round pick is only three picks after the New York Giants’ first rounder. Why? Because New England forfeited its pick, and the ATL-OAK-KC order rotates on a round-to-round basis. Rather than throw the bank at Samuel or gamble on a young CB, why not go after Hall? I’m all but convinced that he’s fine citizenship-wise, and a year ago he would have cost an early first, maybe more. He’s a Pro Bowl-caliber corner. I see him as a bargain. Time to relaunch the campaign?
If we land an offensive tackle by signing Max Starks or drafting Jake Long we can easily afford to do this. Which leads me to…
- Exhibit B: Jake Long
Sure, Long might indeed be more physically impressive than Joe Thomas. Keep in mind, though, that there are four other players, maybe five, who also “can’t slip” to or past five.
There’s talk that QB Matt Ryan might go number one. The Tuna knows the importance of the quarterback position, and he isn’t tied to John Beck–he didn’t draft him. The Dolphins could and likely will go Ryan, if you ask me. When you are staring from scratch and can pick anything, you should start with a quarterback.
Then you have the Rams. They already have a franchise left tackle, albeit an old one, and a franchise running back. They picked defensive tackle last year, so I see them going with DE Chris Long this year. He’s the best defensive end prospect since Mario Williams, and we saw what Super Mario did last year. Also, the Rams could have the most putrid defense in the league. That unit was downright pathetic last year. Actually, that defense has blown for a long time now.
Next up is the Atlanta Falcons. The Falcons are having trouble selling tickets, and desperately need a new face for the franchise. After seeing what Adrian Peterson and Reggie Bush did as rookies for the Minnesota Vikings and New Orleans Saints, respectively, how could they pass on Darren McFadden? Especially when Warrick Dunn is older than Sean Connery, and Jerious Norwood is extremely brittle. They can’t. The know that the Lions and Bucs are still kicking themselves for passing on Purple Jesus, and they won’t make that same mistake. In this scenario, Run DMC goes three.
Last but not least, we now have the Raiders at four. Their defensive line stunk last year, and the last time they picked an offensive tackle this early they whiffed. I highly doubt Al Davis wants to spend big bucks on another OT. Honestly, I think he goes Glenn Dorsey here, but they could also go Sedrick Ellis. Remember, these could be the best two defensive tackles we’ve seen in quite some time, and Ellis played at USC, where Kiffin coached.
Under that scenario, Jake Long falls to us. For all of you who think it is inconceivable, Scout Inc.’s Todd McShay had Jake Long falling to us under a different scenario just yesterday. Keep in mind that while a franchise tackle might be hard to pass on, so will a franchise QB and RB, not to mention the best two defensive tackles we’ve seen in a long time. I also think Brian Brohm and Jonathan Stewart have a chance to really, really rise. I think both could be stars, and I’m not the only one.
So, while I respect the hell outta both Steven and Zach, today we must agree to disagree. I could be totally wrong, and I likely will be on at least one of two accounts. But I thought I needed to pop on and play devil’s advocate here.
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No way am I buying it that the Tuna would take Matt Ryan #1 - if he does then God Bless the Tuna! I like you Adam and since I have found this site I feel that I agree with most things you say, but if Ryan goes to Miami I will …………. hell I don’t know, but I will do something.
February 23rd, 2008 at 3:30 pmAs far as Hall goes though I totally agree - sign him!
February 23rd, 2008 at 3:31 pmWhy wouldn’t the Tuna draft Ryan? He could end up being a franchise QB. He certainly has the tools and the intangibles.
February 23rd, 2008 at 3:54 pmI also am going to look and see what percentage of the time a QB goes first…
February 23rd, 2008 at 3:55 pmWell the Giants are already offering the 31st pick of the draft for Hall. You have to beat that to get him.The Chiefs could trade down to the late first round, grab some extra draft picks, and then trade the first for Hall.I would not dismiss his character issues either. Former Eagle and Hall team mate in Atlanta Ike Reese said Hall is immature, and disruptive to the team. He said ever since he got there Hall would not listen to coaches, and create issues within the locker room.Then Hall also wants a new contract reportedly worth about 10 million a year.Hall is very talented, but you really have to wonder why Atlanta is so eager to move him.
February 23rd, 2008 at 4:10 pmLook - I don’t really know how to explain it other than where has he been up until this last year. Dorsey, Ellis, DMac, and both Long’s have been dominating everyone since……..well, forever! You see it when they play, they have the "it" factor. Since High school Brohm has been "the man" then this year because his team sucks everyone begins to "forget" how good he is and then try to annoint Woodson (look where he is now) and most recently because of a good year Ryan. I am not saying that he sucks, but that he has been chosen as the #1 QB by default. He would be a great fit for the Ravens becuase that is where I see his value. I know that Miami and Atlanta (and us) need one but the Tuna needs to make a splash in year "1" and I don’t think Ryan is a splash. Look if he goes in the top 5 I will be doing cartwheels. #1 becuase that means one more eliete player falls to us (hopefully J Long) and #2 we won’t make the mistake of taking him with our #5 pick
February 23rd, 2008 at 4:20 pmIn the age of the salary cap, you have to be careful where you spend your big bucks. Hall only has one year left on his contract and will expect a huge payday. The one thing about the cover 2 is that it does not put a premium on stud CB’s. Given that, I don’t see us pursuing a big bucks CB under Herm.
February 23rd, 2008 at 4:33 pmMerlin, that was several years ago. With the new rules that favor receivers you need good corners. I mean, look at the years relatively unheralded receivers like Bobby Engram and Wes Welker had. You have to have good, fast corners or these guys will find holes in any and every defense. The days of plugging just anybody into the Cover 2 are over.
February 23rd, 2008 at 4:38 pmDave, let’s wait to see what Ryan does on his Wonderlic, how he runs and then how he throws on March 18. Remember, Ellis just became a top five guy after the Senior Bowl, and Brohm was in the top five until a couple months ago. We really don’t know that much about these guys yet.
February 23rd, 2008 at 4:39 pmIan, that’s why I threw in a future third or fourth. Also, keep in mind that the Falcons would save money by passing on the last pick of the first round for the third pick in the second round.
February 23rd, 2008 at 4:41 pmAdam, sure McShay had Long dropping to us YESTERDAY! Today Long was the talk of the Combine and solidifed he is a top 3 pick, hands down.
You can predict what each of those teams do, but you didn’t figure in someone could trade up to get Long. I wasn’t really even talking about any of those teams, I more or less sayiong that no matter the teams Long will be a top 3-4 pick.
If you want to bet on it, i would love to make a friendly wager with a co-AA writer and brother
February 23rd, 2008 at 4:59 pmand I know you dont get the NFL Network so you missed the combine anyways
So before you talk you might want to get the latestet up-to-date news….
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:00 pmLike I said, just playing devil’s advocate. I’ve been reading like crazy, and for those of us who still actually read we know that reading is just as informative as the good ol’ tube.
Anytime you or Steve want to play devil’s advocate, fine, I know I can be a little radical sometimes. No real need to bet, because I’m not saying that he won’t go. What I am saying is that he definitely could fall to five. It’s not nearly as improbable as you act like it is. Hell, if the Browns pick Quinn third last year then Thomas possibly falls all the way to the Cardinals, see what I mean.
What I want to stress here is that there are four players out there who are just as impressive as Jake Long — Chirs Long, Glenn Dorsey, Run DMC and Sedrick Ellis — and a potential franchise QB out there. You could EASILY make the case that someone will tradeup to get a RB or QB, or even one of the two stud DTs.
I’m just saying that there are other guys out there just as impressive, and the teams ahead of us have more pressing needs than offensive tackle. I think the scenario makes a ton of sense, but that’s just me.
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:12 pmZach: can you wait till the combines are done before final judgement? The D-line has yet to go and there are 4 guys that could contend for a top 5 slot.
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:12 pmOh, Mr. NFL Network
, what’s the scoop on Ryan Clady? Haven’t been able to find a lot on him on the Interwebs. Guess reading isn’t superior…
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:13 pmThanks, Merlin. You are a wizard! Actually, let’s wait and see how Run DMC and the two QBs do, too. If Matt Ryan performs well on his tests, does well on the Wonderlic and throws great on pro day (March 18), I think he goes No. 1. Just my opinion, folks.
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:15 pmHe did what he was figured, but some are putting Otah ahead of him now. Also Chris Williams was only able to bench 21 reps.
Long was all anyone could talk about except TE Keller from Purdue. I mean the guys putting on the Combine acted like Jake Long walked on water and feed the crowd with only a fish and loaf of bread. Although, when you throw up 37 reps and are 6′7 313, plus your smart, tough, and only gave up 2 sacks in College I can see how people might act like that.
I heard a good story about him too. His mother works at a deli and his father works for GM on the assembly lines. This summer his parents are planning on retiring because their son made it to the big time.
Also I am not sure why Adam thinks that if your team is at rock bottom that drafting a QB is a must. Ask the Browns how that turned out for them with Tim Couch or the Texans with David Carr. When your starting out a franchise I think LT and DT are much more importatn positions.
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:20 pmUh, Adam I think I said that in my last post in the comments about Ryan. Look it up….. Still doesn’t change that Long will be picked
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:23 pmUsing Tim Couch and David Carr as examples is a manipulation of the truth if i have ever seen one. Tim Couch was a huge bust, and Carr was drafted by an expansion team. What about the Manning brothers? Or Ben Roethlisberger? They’ve won the past three Super Bowls. Before them, the fluke draft of all time — Tom Brady — was racking them up. QB is the most important position in football, I think we all realize that.
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:42 pmAnd if you are certain Long will be gone — and the odds are with you, but he could still slip to five — then we have to decide bewteen Ryan or one of the two defensive tackles (whichever is left). Clady sounds like a major reach at this point. I guess it is also still possible that McFadden falls to us. It happened to Peterson last year because of injuries, and Run DMC has some off-the-field issues. Trading down is still a remote possibility.
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:44 pmHow can people get sucked into believing any of the QBs this year are any better than Croyle? If they had been in the draft Croyle was in every one of them would have been 3rd round or later.This is one of the worst QB classes I’ve ever seen. Matt Ryan gets hype because he’s the best of the lot, but the fastest runner in the Special Olympics is still retarded.
February 23rd, 2008 at 6:03 pmAdam, my point was that if you are shitty than drafting a QB qill not help you because you dont have protection, a running game or a defense.
Your examples are the ones that are the manipulation, The Steelers, Giants, and Colts all had way more talent than the Dolphins have right now. Tom Brady was not the 1st overall pick either, bro. SO you are the one that is skewed.
February 23rd, 2008 at 6:10 pmLOL… What I was saying is, that you only get a quarterback like Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Joe Montana or Tony Romo outside of the first round about a couple times a decade. Not one team, all 32 only get a couple. We’ve tried to do that for two decades. and the only time it has worked is when we pay a big price for an established QB. So, it really has never worked draft-wise. We have never drafted a good QB under Carl, and I’m just not convinced Brodie is that guy.
We have a good RB, we have a good defense, sign Max Starks and draft another lineman or two and the O-line will be there.
I just don’t see why everyone is so pro-Brodie and so anti-Ryan right now? WTF? Ryan is going to be a standout. I really think he will be.
February 23rd, 2008 at 6:39 pmNo, what I have been disagreeing with you about is the Dolphins comment:
"When you are staring from scratch and can pick anything, you should start with a quarterback."
February 23rd, 2008 at 6:53 pmHey Adam/Zach, I have been hearing numerous reports today that D. Jackson (cal WR) measured so small that he might fall to the middle of the 2nd round. He is one of my favorite players and I am wondering if anyone here likes him as much as me. I would love to take him with the 2nd round pick if he falls. Thoughts?
February 23rd, 2008 at 7:00 pmThat’s a thought. Here’s how I feel, Dave. Between the first couple rounds and our free agent moves we have to come away with an offensive tackle, a defensive tackle, a corner, a No. 2 wideout and a quarterback. If the Chiefs don’t agree on QB, then a guard/center. However we accomplish that is fine, but that should be the goal.
I’m hoping for Starks/Williams, Stallworth/Hackett/Carter, Sedrick Ellis, Joe Flacco and DeAngelo Hall. But Jackson could fit into the plans. So could Rogers-Cromartie. So could Brohm, Clady, Otah or Talib if we moved back in a trade. Lot’s of possibilities. I think we have to sign an O-lineman, though. If we go G in FA instead of tackle we can still come back in round two and get a Sam Baker or Anthony Collins. The great thing is that both FA and he draft are stacked with hogs. Don’t let the Redbeards of the world scrare ya–we don’t have to go OL with the fifth pick.
It also depends how Jackson runs, really. Since you know more about him than I do, who does he remind you of? Santana Moss? Steve Smith? Joey Galloway? Samie Parker (just kidding)?
Lots of options for us to put this thing together!
February 23rd, 2008 at 7:26 pmAnd I always think it is best to draft a QB when you are totally rebuilding. ALWAYS. QB is the one position you reach on, and the one position worth striking out on. Homeruns there often equal Super Bowl trophies.
February 23rd, 2008 at 7:28 pmIt’s tuff to say exactly who he reminds me of - I saw most of Steve Smiths game in college and there are some similarities. The reason I bring him up is he is one of just a handful of players that are "game changers" on the offensive side. If we need a wide out (and we do) can we pass on him if he is there/or is he to big of a price with our other needs?
February 23rd, 2008 at 7:48 pmAdam - first off, I don’t agree with your every jot and tittle but I do gotta say I really enjoy your slants and how well you defend your arguments. I am not ready to buy into Ryan going to Miami yet because I think Parcells is smart enough to figure out that, much like our own beloved Brodie, it’s premature to hang Beck for Miami’s problems. He also knows that the Phins (much like the Chiefs) are not likely to be fully fixed through one year’s set of offseason maneuvers. Given Parcells history and penchants, I see Miami using free agency and the draft primarily to address and rebuild defense but we have yet to what extent he does so with each. Dave - if the incredibly shrinking 5′ 9" D Jack falls to the 2nd round, the Chiefs would be utter fools to not jump all over him. Dream scenario in my opinion.
February 23rd, 2008 at 9:34 pmOh and btw, I’m not too jazzed about seeing Hall in red. I think we already have defensive talent that is emerging that only needs tweaking here and there. The main focus this year needs to be putting points and the board and keeping the defense off the field in the 4th quarter. Not opposed to seeing guys like Briggs or Trufant acquired mind you, just not at the top of wish list.
February 23rd, 2008 at 9:40 pmpoints "on" the board that is
February 23rd, 2008 at 9:41 pmDD: Hence why I think we need to draft a LT and a C/OG in the first 3 rounds. I would rate our needs, in order as: LT, G/C, CB, LB, DT. IMO sustained drives should be the mantra and TD’s over FG’s. We had far too many 3 and outs last year. If we improve that, the D will be much fresher in the 4th Q.
February 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 pmDD - I hate to tell you but Trufant was tagged so we wont get him
February 23rd, 2008 at 11:01 pmBriggs, eff man, what is everybody’s problem with Napoleon Harris and Donnie? They are more than fine, especially with better DT and secondary play. We need to knock that off right now. My new mission when it comes to the Chiefs is convincing people that we do not need another LB this year, because we really don’t. We have much more pressing needs. That and this Cover 2 magic. Driving me absolutely nuts.
February 24th, 2008 at 12:43 amDave, thanks to you I will now take a long look at DeSean! Could be an option there in round two.
February 24th, 2008 at 12:45 amDouble D, thanks for the compliment.
I really try to push the envelope, and not sit on the fence when it comes to the Chiefs. Sometimes I really push and go over the top, but it’s always to prove a point and get people talking. I often play devil’s advocate as well, and try to leave no ground uncovered. I also write things that I think will inspire great conversation, because if the blogs, and the media, and the Internet, and the sports talk radio can create enough of buzz, maybe the Chiefs will actually listen. Not saying they will take our advice, but more that they will know that we expect a lot from them and are always watching. Always. I want to be entertaining, too, which hopefully all of us at AA accomplish, at least from time to time.
Most of all, I’m just a fan like everyone else. We started this site because I happen to be a writer, and Zach happens to be a web designer. But we started it also because we always wanted a forum were we could sound off about the Chiefs. And he and I argue about the Chiefs, always have, and I love it. same thing with our old man. Our Chiefs phone calls are like sports talk radio. I love debating the Chiefs. Why? Because it’s not about right or wrong, it’s about the passion. You won’t find very many fans that get into it like the AA crew does. And that means not just the staff, but you, Redbeard, Merlin, xxxlp, Roc27, Dave, Jeremy, Cornelius, I mean the list goes on and on (if I left you out I will name drop you next time!).
I also love when you guys counter my arguments. I can make compelling cases about anything, it’s what I do. But I’m wrong quite a bit. And you guys really, really know your stuff, man. I actually enjoy getting called out and those discussions more than anything. As we always say, the comments are the best part of AA. Only if King Carl, Herm and Bill Kuharich read them all.
On the Briggs/Harris tangent, it’s just been getting to me, because I think we are great there. Hopefully, everyone else can see my POV on that. There are needs and then there are NEEDS. Know what I mean? Briggs would be a luxury pick-up. That’s not something we can afford right now. We’re not the Pats.
February 24th, 2008 at 1:00 am1st of all… Adam, Thanks for the shout out… I Love to write and some say I have the gift of gab. Im EXTREMELY passionate about football, and my (OUR) Chiefs at that. So Thank you guys for making it possible for guys like me to be able to speak our minds… Next, Im glad you made this post. Everyone here has been so damn negative about our chances of getting Long, that it really brings me down and I wanna go into the draft with something to look forward to… I Do think he could fall to us cause other teams have needs more than the O-Line. So, we’ll just have to wait and see.
February 24th, 2008 at 5:17 amAnd as much as I believe in picking the best talent available… we STILL need to be smart about things. IF Jake isnt there… IF Dorsey or Ellis isnt there… and we have Run DMC in front of us… I say we trade down, get Otah and DRC from a trade with Dallas… Then either grab Sam Baker or D.Jack in the early 2nd round… Now THAT sounds like a great draft year to me… And Adam, I LOVE Donnie. Im Not TOO jazzed about Nap, BUT I ALSO see that we need help at our tackle positions. Which is why I WOULD NOT pass on Dorsey Or Ellis. . . Cause I see a lot of potential in Nap.
February 24th, 2008 at 5:24 amROC: that works, though I think it’s a unlikely scenario that we don’t have J Long, Dorsey or Ellis available. However, stranger things have happened.
February 24th, 2008 at 12:08 pmbriggs is a luxury we would not cry about after he arrived…
February 24th, 2008 at 3:29 pmand think about it why not have both here, if they casn hang onto bell why not add a briggs?
February 24th, 2008 at 3:30 pmPeople are acting like Nap was Kendrell Bell or Shawn Barber–the guy had a respectable season!
Doresy is an injury scare, but I do like the Otah/DRC-trade scenario.
And no sweat on the props, Roc27. You add a lot to the site. All of you do!
February 24th, 2008 at 3:31 pmThanks Adam… Yeah, after seeing a lot more tape Otah, I like him A LOT more than Clady in the run game. I like him more as a LT than Clady too. And DRC would be great in our Defense. He totally proved himself at the Senior Bowl. And the more I think about it… the more I wouldnt mind NOT geting Jake Long. Cause being at #5 we will no matter what, come out with a great draft year. This draft may put a lot of the pieces of our puzzle together. Someone said that it doesnt take one off - season to rebuild a team, comparing us to Miami…. But you know what…. I very much DISAGREE. 1st of all, we didnt go 1-15. I know 4-12 isnt all that much better, but we werent getting smashed every game. We had so many games in our grasp, but lost it in just about every 4th quarter in the season. So, I wouldnt begin to put us in the the same line as Miami. 2nd, we’ve BEEN in this rebuilding stage since Herm came in. So, we should be getting to the point where we’re close to the end and ready to move forward. Miami is just horrible and so many people thought they were gonna be a hell of a lot better than they turned out to be. So… whoever made that comment… get your mind right.
February 24th, 2008 at 4:58 pmDoes anyone know what the limit is in this years draft? I heard it was 10 and looking at our picks shouldn’t we have 3 picks in the seventh. 1. our pick. 2. Tampa bay for Ryan Simms. 3. Giants for Tynes,. And if we get more than 10 then do we have to Combine picks and trade up or do we get them next year?
February 24th, 2008 at 5:27 pmWe have 10 picks I believe, and I also think that has always been the limit.
February 24th, 2008 at 5:41 pmI believe 10 is the limit in Madden. :) As far as I know, there is no set limit in the NFL. We may even end up with a comp pick or two.
February 24th, 2008 at 5:54 pmnever enough picks…lol, yes there is no limit
February 25th, 2008 at 6:53 pm